Appreciated, but it’s important to stay within a factual basis. Our lead archivist, @PurpleChimera, has an excellent podcast episode on research and bias in the grimoire, which I believe has already been mentioned in this topic. Highly recommended.
In any case, there seems to be a growing school of thought that all grimoire is inherently unreliable. Previous forays into that area of discussion on this site and elsewhere have basically debunked that. The only times we come across a definitively unreliable narrator are when Hunters are shooting the breeze or we’re dealing with part-history, part-propaganda like the Books of Sorrow.
This isn’t necessarily true. At the time the Books of Sorrow took place, the war between the Deep and the Sky had been ongoing for a long time.
Verse 1:8 - Leviathan
The Leviathan’s Warning
++We live on the edge of a war—
—a war between Formless and Form++
++between the Deep and the Sky—
The Leviathan refers to the war as if it is already in progress.
Verse 1:9 - The Bargain
For millions of years We have been [trapped|growing] in the Deep. From across the stars We have called life to Fundament, so that it might contend against extinction. For millennia We have awaited you… our beloved hosts.
The Worm Gods refer to a long period of imprisonment as enemies of the Sky.
Both the Deep and the Sky are capable of paracausality, which in Guardian parlance has been dubbed “Hive magic”.
2:6 - The sword logic
We will not give you the Deep, King Auryx — that power is for us, your gods. But we will teach you to call upon that force with signs and rituals.
Small minds might call it magic.
You are no longer bound by causal closure. Your will defeats law.
The war has been going on for who knows how long prior to the worm gods encountering Aurash.
The krill and other races of the Fundament are limited to technology until they are affiliated with one of the two powers-that-be: the Deep of the Sky. But this doesn’t mean “no one” has ever used paracausality, especially when the war has been in progress for a long time.
The Leviathan may be part machine, like the Traveler, but it has biological material that the worm gods feed on.
2:9 - Crusaders
It’s done. Eir and Yul feed on the Leviathan’s carcass.
Exploratory question here - where are you getting this? If it’s just a theory, then it’s an interesting thought, but highly unlikely for a number of reasons.
I assume by “dragon god” you mean the worm gods. It’s important to make the distinction, and not just because the general consensus is that they are related but different.
The Ghost calls the darkness in the Black Garden a god, but that doesn’t necessarily make it one. The Vex in the Black Garden did pretty much what Quria did when they encountered the Deep.
4:9 - open your eye: go into it
Soon Quria, Blade Transform manifested religious tactics. By directing worship at the worms, Quria learned it could alter reality with mild ontopathogenic effects. Being an efficient machine, Quria manufactured a priesthood and ordered all its subminds to believe in worship.
There’s nothing to suggest that the “wall of void” Calus encountered is a god. We don’t know what it is. It might be some representation of the Deep, but we have too little information, and certainly no foundation to assert that it is its own god.
If you were to ask “What gods do we know of in Destiny?” And you were answered with things that call themselves gods or have been called gods by others, then you would be left with the Traveler “divine presence of the Sky”, and the worm gods. The Deep and the sky themselves have never been referred to as anything more than a power or philosophy, or both.
Already touched on this one. I think this is a bit of an oversimplified dichotomy; neither the Deep or the Sky uses exclusively one or the other.
4:2 - majestic. Majestic.
The fate of everything is made like this, in the collision, the test of one praxis against another. This is how the world changes: one way meets a second way, and they discharge their weapons, they exchange their words and markets, they contest and in doing so they petition each other for the right to go on being something, instead of nothing. This is the universe figuring out what it should be in the end.
From the mouth of the Deep itself. According the the sword logic, all life is on constant competition. If the Sky hunted the Deep to near-extinction, by the laws of the Deep this is rightful contention for the right to exist.
The conflict between the Deep and the Sky is one between two contradicting philosophies, a “test of praxis against one another”. It’s a fight between godlike entities over which system of beliefs wins out over time.
Any number of things. “If not [x] then what” isn’t an effective catch-22 when we’re dealing with this universe.
This isn’t necessarily true either. Even under the assumption that the worm gods are ahamkara, or related to the ahamkara, the very verse you’re quoting Xivu Arath on up ahead tells of dragons not affiliated with the Hive, who were used in the war between Harmony and Xivu’s brood.
5:4 - The Gift Mast
Now arrives Xivu Arath, at the head of her armada. She fights the Harmony for fifty years with strategies and discipline. But the Harmony turn to dragon-wishes, and their wishful bishops wrestle Xivu in the ascendant plane.
Harmony is fighting in defense of the Gift Mast, which was made by the Traveler.
THE GIFT MAST. When the Traveler left Harmony, it made a monument out of the black hole’s polar jet. In the jet there is a hollow mast which sings in radiance. This is the Gift Mast and we will devour it, we will eat the Sky out of it, we will snap it like a bone.
These dragons whose wishes are being used against the Hive are clearly not aligned with the Deep or acting out of hatred for the Traveler.
It’s commendable to take a stance that’s different from what’s generally agreed upon. But you’re basing your assertions on a certain type of hermeneutics, interpreting the lore favorably to support your opinion.
All research works according to that bias, including the research that makes the mainstream theories so popular; the important thing is to base it in actual fact rather than mostly conjecture.
The Hive have paracausal abilities from the Deep, but the Guardians also possess paracausality from the Sky. Don’t count them out.
There are also Cabal Psions, who have considerable telekinetic ability.
This is an interesting observation, but aesthetic similarity isn’t enough to say servitors (or the Traveler) are Vex constructs. Remember that servitors and the Vex are radically different in how they operate and where their allegiances lie. Not to mention the Traveler itself.
Pretty sure this has come up before. Concept art is cool in that it shows us what might have been, but given the numerous production changes to Destiny’s plot and planning, as well as the amount of art any project goes though before settling on a design, we’re better off taking what’s actually in the game as canon.
Visual information like what you’ve mentioned usually doesn’t get factored into theory without some other evidence to support it.
As we understand it, because he wanted to.
4:8 - The partition of death
One day Oryx decided to grow new wings. While he wrestled with his worm, he came upon his twin daughters dying in a wound between places.
I think your idea that Oryx was approaching the “true form” of a dragon is interesting, but it doesn’t seem like a question that will be answered anytime soon.