comment down below pls, I already am a experienced lore master myself i just want to see other peoples veiws on things
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What do you want to discuss? I’d love to talk about any part of the lore. (That I’ve read)
anything you want, books of sorrow, the nine, etc, really i just want to learn new stuff about the lore or gain new perspectives, this is a starting point to that.
I would love to talk about the books of sorrow and what you think parts of them mean. One big question I have is where did the Tablets of Ruin come from? Were they created when Oryx killed Akka, or did killing Akka give Oryx the tablets of ruin in his mind, and he wrote them. (Sorry about any wrong information such as the name of the tablets and which worm god he killed.)
my theory on it is that the tablets are ahamkara bones (Akkas bones) that hold his secrets, also due to the similarity to xol, will of thousands and the leviathan on titan along with oryx’s death I believe Akka has been reborn in the pit of titan
How do you think Akka was reborn? Do you think that he was reborn in the mind of Oryx’s worm? I say this because I think that Oryx’s worm still lives on Titan because it floated there from the Dreadnaught when we killed him in Kings Fall
the worm by itself is the larvae of the worm gods, i wouldn’t be surprised if oryx’s worm is Akka
If Akka could come back, does that mean we may see Xol again?
We have a pretty good idea of this from XXVIII:
“Akka my God, Worm of Secrets. I am Auryx, sole king of the Hive. I have come to receive a secret. I want the secret power of the Deep, which you hold.”
“I give no secrets,” said Akka, whose voice was code.
“No,” said Auryx, “you give nothing. Giving is for the Sky. You worship the Deep, which asks that we take what we need.”
Auryx the First Navigator set upon his god with his sword and his words, and cut Akka to pieces, and took from those pieces the secret of calling upon the Deep. He wrote this secret on a set of tablets, which he called the Tablets of Ruin. And he wore them about his waist.
Then Auryx said, “Now I may speak to the Deep, the beautiful final shape. I will be King of Shapes. I will learn all the secrets of our destiny.”
Oryx kills Akka to take the secret of calling the Deep from it. After this, he spoke to the Deep directly, and “emerged” with the power to Take. This idea of making something from the body of a Worm God is repeated in XLI:
To make his ship, Oryx scrimshawed one piece of Akka, who was dead but far from gone.
Forsaken seems to have furthered the idea that the Worm gods are not Ahamkara (I did a post on the subject ages ago, but it’s pretty out of date.) Some of this information hasn’t been released, so I won’t discuss it here, but the exposition we’ve gotten about the Ahamkara shows them to act differently than we saw the Worm Gods do in the BOS. There’s still the connection between the two both using “o ____ mine” to alter reality, but the in regards to physical forms & how they operate, they seem to vary pretty wildly.
One example is the pact between the Worm Gods and Hive, and how we don’t see that concerning the Awoken’s relationship to the Ahamkara. Oryx says this in L:
This is the pact to which I am bound, in particular by my study of the Tablets of Ruin, and by my use of the power of the Deep.
Meanwhile, the Forsaken lore makes no mention of a similar pact between the Awoken and Ahamkara. The relationship seems fairly symbiotic and laid-back for a stretch of time:
Mara and Riven shaped her third throne together, and the artistry of their work was a testament to the hungry joy they felt in that partnership.
I’m not saying it was symbiotic as the Ahamkara claim, but there’s a marked difference between how the two are portrayed, especially when it comes to their powers. Add this to the physical differences we see in entities such as Xol and Riven, and I think that they’re not the same species, though they may share a common ancestor somewhere down the line.
As for Akka being reborn, it’s already said to be “dead but far from gone.” There’s also the fact that Akka is still able to be mantled after its death, as mentioned in XXXVII:
You have announced that you will kill one of these axioms, as Akka would kill the truth, and in mantling Akka you will become a God, as I am.
The closest thing we get to an exploration of the Worm Gods after they die is in Whisper of the Worm, which implies that Xol is also still sentient in some way beyond the physical:
Xol, the Will of Thousands, perished but was not destroyed. Death is a road, death is metamorphosis, the unsacred union between destroyer and destroyed.
Death is already a tricky subject with the Ascendant Hive, and it becomes even more so when discussing their Gods.
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thanks mate! though I had always assumed that the worm gods were not your average wish dragons, in saying that I realize riven isn’t ether, but if they are not ahamkara what are they? manifestations of the deep like golgoroth? ancient leviathans of fundament? world parasites? also I know riven can change shape but her face and body structure (not regarding the chitin) looks eerily similar to xols. anyway im glad someone made a huge post for this.
also from my knowledge death has always been a relative term for ascendant hive, even when Oryx kill both of his sisters “permanently” for the sword logic to kill Akka they were still reborn due to their deification as and aspect of what they are, Savathun as trickery, Xivu Arath as war, Oryx as curiosity, still im sure people are still curious after his death so I assume for a re birthing from such a powerful death can only be done by someone of equal or more power, other than that the oversoul says it allows ascendant hive to “hide” in their death but this may be for only certain ascendant hive, a throne world is a pocket dimension made larger upon a ascendant hive gaining new sword logic to make it. ghosts dialogue while fighting the Mindbender states something similar to saying that the Mindbender only got a throne world this big due to his killing of Cayde which makes this a bit more true.
sorry for any wrong info, all are just my general knowledge on the subject
and to your question, maybe. so far the worm gods dont seem to treat death as an end.
You’re very welcome! Lore discussions are why we’re here, after all.
Regarding the Worm Gods, we don’t really know much about their origins. There’s what Yul says in IX:
For millions of years We have been [trapped|growing] in the Deep. From across the stars We have called life to Fundament, so that it might contend against extinction. For millennia We have awaited you… our beloved hosts.
However, I wouldn’t take the Worm Gods fully at their word here - they may have been the ones that caused the God-Wave on Fundament in the first place in a bid to have the proto-Hive reach out to them (as the Leviathan says in XVIII). However, it’s safe to assume that the Worm Gods are a very old, and very powerful, species. Akka could call directly upon the Deep, for example, which implies more power than almost any other entity we’ve seen.
That specific instance was due to how the throne worlds work. The scene in XXVI takes place in Oryx’s throne:
Beneath a green fire sky, in the throne-world of King Auryx, our lords embrace.
So King Auryx took up his blade and beheaded Xivu Arath. […]
But King Auryx turned with the speed and might of Xivu Arath, and beheaded Savathûn before she could move. King Auryx was the First Navigator, with the map of death.
These were true deaths, for they happened in the sword world.
Because Xivu Arath and Savathûn are killed in Oryx’s throne and not their own, they are able to be revived in XXIX through war and trickery, respectively.
However, Ascendant Hive killed in their throne worlds (as with Oryx & Crota) die permanently. Oryx says this himself in L:
If my Court and my throne can be beaten, if I am confronted in my throne, if I am defeated there, then I will die. My work will end.
Death is often relative, but there are some rules that can’t be broken.
Oversouls are interesting, and we’ve only really seen two - from Crota and the Warpriest in D1. Ir Halak and Ir Anûk describe it in XXXVIII:
“We propose a method by which Ascendant souls can be detached and integrated into a tautological and autonomous thanatosphere, which we tentatively term an oversoul. Oversouls can be stored in a throne world as a mechanism of enhanced death resilience."
However, the research may have stopped after the Crota-Quria fiasco. Crota is one of the only Ascendant Hive we know of that has an Oversoul. The only other that we’ve seen with one is the Warpriest, who learned to make his “From mighty Crota.” Oryx’s throne didn’t appear to have one, and the Mindbender’s throne didn’t have the characteristic light / wipe mechanic that comes with one, either.
There’s a lot of places where speculation fills in the gaps. Most Hive lore still comes from the BOS, though we know a little more about throne worlds after Mara made hers (interestingly enough, seemingly without using the Sword Logic).
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this question has been bothering me for some time but i will stress this in a different thing, anyway thanks for the comments, if anyone else wants to speak of something different all you need to do is comment
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this question has been bothering me for some time but i will stress this in a different thing, anyway thanks for the comments, if anyone else wants to speak of something different all you need to do is comment
Mara made her throne world using Riven and the Blind Well. Riven carved out a space between spaces, and the Blind Well powers the artificial Sword Logic that the world runs on.
I’d like to tentatively add that while it may never be definitively stated as to what the Tablets of Ruin are actually made from, I’d like to remind that we have actually seen them in game. The wipe mechanic during the Golgoroth encounter during Kingsfall is the activation of the two Tablets in the back; The pillars that light up with runes as players die, eventually activating the wipe mechanic if too many people died during the encounter. We know that those are the tablets, due to the notification that appears in the corner of the screen as players die, as well as the name of the killing force that you see when you die from it before the encounter reset.
I’ve never quite bought into the idea that Xivu Arath and Savathun revived themselves because they were killed in Oryx’s Throne and not their own. While it makes sense at first, it starts to crumble a bit when you think about it. Firstly, why would they be incapacitated for so long? Why would they be trapped so deeply within their Thrones? In an earlier entry of the Books of Sorrow, they are described as fighting and killing each other in their sword spaces. So why would it take so much effort to bring them back to life when Oryx killed them, but not any effort before when they were killing each other in each other’s Thrones?
Secondly, there’s the issue of what this all accomplishes. When Oryx killed them in his Throne, he killed them because he needed more power in the Sword Logic. Apparently, and this is described specifically in the Books of Sorrow, this act of killing his sisters gave him a shitload of power. Enough that he could fight and kill Akka successfully. And we know he was more powerful than Akka and we know that it wasn’t a lie written by Oryx, as Nokris states Oryx became more powerful than the Worm gods in the web lore. He specifically says:
I, the child become [herald|death], record these words. They are not of the Sorrow. They are mine.
That seems to me as if the writers are trying to explicitly say it was true and that the truth couldn’t have been tampered with by Oryx.
So if that is true, how the hell did he gain so much power? It’s stated earlier in the Books of Sorrow that they killed each other in their sword spaces. Considering they fought their wars for 20,000 Fundament years, you would have to assume they had been killed in a Throne World plenty of times. So why didn’t they gain each other’s power?
I think we’re simplifying a very complex topic whenever we say “Oh, they weren’t really dead because they were killed in Oryx’s Throne.” Because either there’s more to it, or Seth Dickenson fucked up and accidentally created a plothole.
The Books of Sorrow draw a distinction between the sword space and the throne worlds. From XXI:
But XIVU ARATH said, sister, I am already sharp, look, my sword cuts into another space. And she cut her way between moons through green fire and joyous screams.
Three kingdoms grew swollen in the sword space. They were the gaze and glory of AURYX, the cunning and knowledge of SAVATHÛN, the triumph and brawn of XIVU ARATH. These kingdoms were created from the minds and worms of our lords.
The sword space seems to align with Toland’s description of the Sea of Screams:
Now I fly between green-black suns in the labyrinth beyond Crota’s god-star. This is the Overworld, the Sea of Screams, where the throne-universes of the great Hive fester in eternal majesty.
Given how the terms are used, I’d say there’s some intent behind them. Being in the sword space doesn’t mean you’re in a throne world.
Additionally, XXXV doesn’t specify that the Siblings are killing each other in their thrones. The quote is this:
For twenty thousand years they fought across the moons and they fought in the abyssal plains and lightning palaces of each other’s sword spaces. And they killed each other again and again, so that they could practice death.
There’s a separation between them fighting in the sword space and them killing each other. We have a chapter that describes one of these killings, and it doesn’t take place in a throne world. From XXIII:
I killed my sister today. […] But as they chased the Qugu ark-ships, I stopped in to vaporize my sister’s warship and a few of her underlings. I want to dwell on the ruins a while, and punish Savathûn for failing to guard her flank.
In XXXVIII, there’s an implication that Akka helped manifest its own demise.
He walked until he found Akka, the Worm of Secrets, who was denying a truth until it became a lie.
Akka said nothing, because if it denied this truth, the truth might become false.
Said Akka, “You have not the strength.”
But this was a lie. Auryx had killed Savathûn his sibling and Xivu Arath his sibling, and he had the sword logic of killing them.
Given Akka’s powers, it’s possible that its denial helped Oryx mantle it.
Nokris also says that Akka was weakened by the bargain being given:
In time, Auryx learned Akka’s secret. That he was stronger than the gods. That they had given their power, and in giving, it was diminished.
Oryx became very powerful because he killed his sisters, yes, but other factors may be at play here.
I don’t think it’s wise to trust the web lore as completely factual, especially since we know that the Books themselves aren’t. Apocrypha is being told to us by Nokris, who was presumably told at least some of this information by Xol. Just because Oryx isn’t narrating doesn’t make Apocrypha objective.
Even if any of the Siblings had killed each other in a throne world, that killing would have yielded a negligible amount of power if it occurred in those first 20,000 years. The fighting comes before the Hive conquer any other races outside of their system:
For twenty thousand years they fought across the moons and they fought in the abyssal plains and lightning palaces of each other’s sword spaces. […]
At last the many moons came to many worlds and it was time to go to war on life.
By the time of XXVI, the Siblings have the Sword Logic of killing “three hundred and six worlds.” It makes sense that the killings in XXVI would yield much more power than any that may have occurred in the twenty thousand years, assuming any happened at all.
I don’t think it’s safe to assume that. The scene in XXVI is framed as a new idea:
“I know a way,” King Auryx says. “But it will require great power. More power than any one of us can claim.”
“Then kill me,” says Xivu Arath, “and use that killing logic, the power you prove by killing something as mighty as me.”
And we don’t have any mention of there being a throne world death or resurrection before this. It’s possible, but not something we can know with any certainty.
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