Revised: Oryx is Super Dead

Lore
#43

As Erin has already pointed out, Xixu Arath and Savathun were able to be resurrected because they were killed in Oryx’s throne world, not their own. At the start of XXVI: star by star by star, the card which describes him killing his sisters, it says that they are “in the throne-world of King Auryx”.

That Oryx’s sisters were not killed in their own throne worlds is confirmed in XXV: This Love Is War, where Xivu Arath says:

Once, I permitted King Oryx to kill me so that he could gain the sword logic and overcome Akka, our god. This left me trapped deep in my throne.

The true deaths that are described in XXVI do not seem to be the same as permanent deaths. A true death is a death that occurs within the ascendant realm (or “sword world” as it is called in the card) but not within the throne world of the Hive that has been killed. So they are trapped within their own throne world until they can be resurrected in some way, such as by carrying out acts that describe their nature.

In contrast, a permanent death is when a Hive is killed within its own throne world, so they cannot be resurrected. In XVII: The Weakness Verse, it says:

Your body is gone, but you have endured. Safe in the cyst universe created by your own might – your throne world. From this day forward, Auryx, you and your sisters will each survive death – so long as you aren’t killed in your own throne.

Oryx confirms that if he is killed in his own throne world, then he will have been permanently killed. In L: Wormfood, Oryx says:

I have died many times but these deaths were only temporary. If my echoes are killed, and I am killed in the material world, then I will be driven back to my throne the Dreadnaught. If my Court and my throne can be beaten, if I am confronted in my throne, if I am defeated there, then I will die. My work will end.

As Hipnuts said, we killed Oryx in his own throne world in the King’s Fall raid. Since Oryx was killed in his own throne world, he cannot be resurrected as Xivu Arath and Savathun were.

It is worth noting that it can be said that Oryx killed his sisters in both his own throne world and the ascendant realm or sworld world since his throne world is located within the ascendant realm, as are all the other throne worlds. Toland describes the ascendant realm, or what he calls the Overworld, in Ghost Fragment: The Hellmouth:

Now I fly between green-black suns in the labyrinth beyond Crota’s god-star. This is the Overworld, the Sea of Screams, where the throne-universes of the great Hive fester in eternal majesty. I move among them. I map the shapes and connections of this world.

However, saying that Xivu Arath and Savathun were killed within the sword world does not mean that they were killed in their own throne worlds. As mentioned previously, XVII: The Weakness Verse shows that Oryx created his own throne world before he killed his sisters as described in XXVI: star by star by star. XXI: an incision confirms that all three siblings created their own throne worlds prior to the events described in XVII:

SAVATHÛN said, Auryx my brother and king, I have studied the wounds cut by the Worm our God. Also I have studied the manner of your death and return. These two things are the same, for they are predicated on death and the passage through cut spaces. Let us practice the sword logic until we are sharp. We may then cut our own wounds and step through.

But XIVU ARATH said, sister, I am already sharp, look, my sword cuts into another space. And she cut her way between moons through green fire and joyous screams.

Three kingdoms grew swollen in the sword space. They were the gaze and glory of AURYX, the cunning and knowledge of SAVATHÛN, the triumph and brawn of XIVU ARATH. These kingdoms were created from the minds and worms of our lords. They were coterminous with all spaces consecrated by our Hive. Through these spaces passed speech and food, and all the moons were bound close.

Sayeth AURYX, this is where I went when I died. Let us establish our thrones here. For I am Auryx the First Navigator and I shall chart death. And my throne shall be carved of osmium.

So when it says in XVII that they were in “the throne-world of King Auryx”, this is referring specifically to Oryx’s (or Auryx at this point) throne world, not just the sword world or ascendant realm in general.

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#44

Jazzy has already made an excellent reply to this piece of your comment, so I won’t retread old ground.

Oryx doesn’t say why he is the Taken King specifically, but in XXVIII he says this:

His speech to the Deep is not recorded here. But it is known that he returned, and he said, now I am Oryx, the Taken King. And I have the power to take life and make it my own.

Given the emphasis on “take life and make it my own,” it seems that the name is a reference to the Taken themselves. The power to “fully understand the Sword Logic” doesn’t require a new name to do so- Quria deduced it, Toland knew it, Savathûn and Xivu Arath speak of it before Oryx kills them in XXVI:

“Then kill me,” says Xivu Arath, “and use that killing logic, the power you prove by killing something as mighty as me.”

So King Auryx took up his blade and beheaded Xivu Arath.

“And strangle me,” says Savathûn, holding a blade behind her back. “Use that killing logic, the cunning you prove by killing something as smart as me.”

Additionally, Oryx himself doesn’t have the power to Take- the Tablets of Ruin do:

He wrote this secret on a set of tablets, which he called the Tablets of Ruin. And he wore them about his waist.

And, given some of D2’s content, someone else now has access to those Tablets, and by extension the power to Take. Oryx was the Taken King, yes, but this requires the Tablets.

As you’ve said, the Darkness is the “final shape”- the one the Hive use the Sword Logic to hopefully achieve. Oryx says himself in XLVIII that he is not the same as his Taken:

I am not Taken. The Hive is not the Deep.

Side note: Oryx may not even be able to be Taken. One of TTK’s Ghost Scans says this:

Ghost: This membrane is attempting to form a bridge between dimensions, but I think it requires a living host.

Given that Oryx isn’t exactly alive- he’s paracausal just like the Guardians- it may be impossible for any Hive with a throne to be Taken, including Oryx. It’s been discussed some here.

As Hipnuts has said, this seems to leave the raid out of any theorizing. You mention the “final cutscene”- that being of the campaign- but Oryx was in King’s Fall.

In King’s Fall, we did not perfectly obey the Logic, which Toland later berates us for:

How did you find your way into the King’s Cellars? How did you even recognize that benighted draught for what it was? Do you not know that the Hive pursue Light precisely for the purpose of devouring it with slavering jaws and slick greedy gulping throats? How did you take (or rather, un-Take) the Blighted Light that Oryx gathered to offer in sacrifice to Akka, and ignite it so that it burned and burned the Darkness?

But you have toppled Oryx and you have not replaced him!

There must be a strongest one. It is the architecture of these spaces.

Why are you leaving?

And from Oryx: Defeated:

Death is the last part of living
and life is learning to die
The song is the same as the singing

Oryx did not die purely because of the Sword Logic, he died because the Guardians released the Light and defeated him truly. His backup plan culminates in the Touch of Malice, but given what we see in-canon there’s next to no way for Oryx to come back from a throne-world death.

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#45

Perhaps relevant.

I just finished the PS4 only strike, with an alternate dialog then I normally witness.
Firstly Oryx is named here the Former Taken King by Devrim talking to Zavala.

This ending said (mind you trying to remember the exact text)

Ghost: We have a problem, This last one was Red Legion.

Zavala: something aligning: this can’t be true the the Taken can’t take since we killed oryx (memory loss sorry)

Ghost replies: According to Ikora, the Book of Sorrows mentions Oryx has sisters.

I believe this conversation is partly bungie acknowledging the fact that Oryx is really dead, and teasing Savathun might be commanding the Taken now?

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#46

I think I’ve heard something similar as well.
Savathün is definitely going to appear sometime in Destiny’s future.

Secrets of the Vex: Vaulted Thrones
#47

Didn’t we kill oryx outside his realm? I thought the dreadnaught was his realm but when we kill him he is technically outside the ship. Not sure if that is correct in concept because he also technically “took” himself in his throne world instead of letting us kill him, because he knew it was his only chance. The rest I believe could be the trick to get himself into our backpack.

#48

What you are talking about is the final story mission, Regicide. We kill him out of his throne world in that mission, and when he appears to take himself I believe that he is just transporting himself to his throne world. Then, in the raid (Kings Fall) we go into his throne world and kill him to die his final death. At least, that’s what I got out of that.

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#49

It states the dreadnaught is his throne realm, in regicide we are about to kill him in the the dreadnaught.
So knowing that this death would be final (because it was in him throne world) oryx took himself/his worm to save himself. If not why take himself at all? He could just keep coming back if it was not a final death.
In the raid oryx floats around the dreadnaught, so he has no fear of death, (and falls into Saturn in his cocoon to evolve into his next form. :crazy_face:)

#50

Nooo, Oryx died his final and ultimate death at the end of KingsFall.

#51

He was literally outside his throne realm

#52

Not necessarily. The Throne realm is only tied to the Dreadnought in the sense that the only place one may access it is whilst on/in the ship. This does not mean that leaving the physical bounds of the Dreadnought is the same as leaving the Throne realm.

#53

From the little I understand about throne worlds, I believe that the only way in or out is through the ascendant portals. As long as he doesn’t leave through one, which I don’t think he did, and we passed through one, which I think we did, he died his final death.

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#54

Technically Oryx could probably be revived with a massive act that simulates his nature, which is curiosity and discovery. This gets really scary when you consider that Savathun is currently trying to discover the Distributary…

#55

That is true…if we understand completely how Hive death and resurrection occur. I am thinking of the true deaths Oryx gave Savathun and Xivo Arath before he resurrected them but he also took power from them. It is possible that taking their power and then using it in a manner akin to how they would have used it was what enabled them to return. IF that is the case, Oryx would not be able to return, as no one took Oryxs’ power.

#56

Savathun most likely took it. She can control the taken after all.

#57

While the Strike “The Festering Core” does seem to suggest that, I point you to the origins of the Hives power: the Worms.
Originally, the power was given. However, Auryx eventually determined that power, when given, violates the Sword Logic and weakens it potency. We also know that Oryx only gained Savathuns and Xivo Araths power by killing them. I posit that the only way one may gain the power of a Hive, god/king or otherwise, is to deliberately take it when you kill. Given that Oryx was killed by us and we did not take his power or his place, no one exists with his power any longer and thus cannot use it to bring him back. Now, that is not to say there no longer exists anyone to Take. That is an inherent power of the Deep/Darkness and I believe that can be taken (little pun there lol) by any with the skills and knowledge and power to wrest it from a powerful enough avatar/wielder of the Deep/Dark.

#58

Unless Savathun did take his power when he died. This would explain why we did not, if Oryx’s power was taken by Savathun. Even if she did not literally kill him, what if she tricked Mara into creating the plan that got Oryx killed so that Savathun could Take Oryx’s power, then kill us and the Awoken with that power, and then use it to resurrect her brother? Just some food for thought.

#59

I do not think Savathun would have had much luck tricking Mara and Eris. As for why we did not take Oryxs place, we chose not to become the First Navigator and Lord of Shapes. We freed the Light Oryx had trapped instead of using it to commune with the Deep.
Furthermore, Savathun using Mara to kill Oryx in order to gain Oryxs power to resurrect Oryx is an answer that begs the question. Savathun would have eventually found a way to commune with the Deep in the same manner Oryx did without having to kill him and then resurrect him.

#60

The only way that Savathun could have communed with the Deep is by either a) killing the Worm of Secrets that knew how to commune with the Deep and stealing his knowledge, or b) stealing the Tablets of Ruin from Oryx. Since Akka is already dead, Savathun would require the second option, which means that she would want Oryx dead in order to steal the tablets. It also does not seem like a big stretch to me that Savathun could manipulate Mara considering that she has a Taken Ahamkara that lives in the Dreaming City.

#61

Riven was not Taken before Mara “died.” Furthermore, we do not know all the ways one can commune with the Deep. We only know of two. Given that Savathuns existence is predicated on the discovery of secrets, it is entirely logical that she would be able to determine another way. Finally, there exist three more Worms that can commune with the Deep. Akka was not the only one.

#62

Akka was the Worm of Secrets, which is why Oryx chose him. If all of the Worms could commune with the Deep, Oryx would have killed Yul, the strongest, in order to gain more strength. Remember that Savathun claims to be Death in the Chronicon. She is clearly very strong according to the Sword Logic, which means that she has likely killed a powerful being. This could be because she instrumented the death of Oryx in order to steal the Tablets and commune with the deep. I’m not saying that it’s guaranteed, but it seems like a strong theory that has a good amount of support. Btw, thanks for the discussion, I like bouncing ideas off of people who seem to know what they’re talking about.

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