Tassadar I’m not quite sure if you’re asking how or why rasputin would claim the SIVA (I have ideas on both but I’d like to make sure I point my theory correctly first) Also keep in mind the rules of time do not apply when speaking of the vex
I’m not sure I follow your example. Clovis Bray were the creators of SIVA, and it would make sense for Rasputin to have access to it seeing as SIVA main replication chamber is based on Earth, and Rasputin was the warmind of earth. Also, as hipnuts said, with the Vex, time is a concept we don’t need to take into account. As well as this, Quria deduced the sword logic during his war with Oryx, and sent back this data into the Vex network. So the Vex, being a massive supercomputer in effect, would have obtained this, and still run its functions over these 1000s of years. Therefore these systems would gave still been in effect when the Ishtar Team were studying the Vex.
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yes, you are right, but with that argument you can put every discussion to a rest, when time and space doesn’t matter, pretty much everything is possible or can be reversed. Yet, the vex seem to believe they are meant to be extinguished at some point in time, so they don’t seem almighty even though they have control over time to some extend.
however I can’t shake off the feeling (just a feeling) that Destiny in the end will not only be about darkness vs light, but also about machines vs. organic life forms. Exos and Warminds seem to be somehow connected (I think I heard that Rasputin totally overreacted when Fellwinter tried to question him about that connection) and both are pretty much creations of the golden age due to the traveller, that is also reffered to as the great machine. Vex seem to be robotic but then their essense is a fliud, that according to our ghost in a mission on nessus, is organic and living. When Asher gets infected his arm is transformed to a robot arm.
If Siva is indeed connected to the Vex it wouldnt surprise me in the end. But I can’t see the Hive being a part of this atm.
Can you bring up the reference about them believing they’ll be extinguished? (Im not familiar with that text)
Why would it matter if they “seem” almighty? And if they reside outside of space and time what does it matter if their physicality ends in the distant future?
If the sword logic has infected the vex and the vex, in turn, SIVA then the hive are already involved.
I’m not quite clear on how an organics/machine war relates to this…
hm yes I can find it, it is a very popular concept I think Byf dedicated a whole video to it. I’ll send the video link later in, but I found this on a quick search for ThePattern. https://www.bungie.net/de/Forums/Post/188439918?sort=0&page=0
see alao my comment below.
Isn’t this the ending to the Paradox mission? I do find this more likely now, although not because of Oryx. Instead, we should look at what the Taken Vex were doing. If they access the Vex network, it could allow for the whole Vex network to be transformed.
yes, I didn’t find the video yet, but I will. I think it is not he general one about vex but that about the Paradox mission as you stated. However I have found proof that the pattern is actually what the Vex see as their inevitable extinction. I am sure it can be found in the Grimmoire but it’s been a long time since I read into it. see here for a first glance https://www.bungie.net/de/Forums/Post/188439918?sort=0&page=0
yeah you might have a point here. I am still not sure why the Vex would adopt the sword logic, but they do seem to worship the darkness, at least in the black garden. so they might have a deeper connection to the hive that we simply don’t know about yet.
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Great points, all of them. We know Clovis and Isthar were both trying to scoop up all the brightest minds in the System. It would surprise me if Clovis had spies within the Collective.
I do agree that they are connected in some way or fashion, but on the other hand I think most of the connections between them all are because of certain events that changed what they became.
For example, when the vex first ran into the hive because of Crota experimenting and accidentally opens a gate to the Vex, which then changes how the Vex see and operate from now on, since the Vex where not made for combat. After the many decades of fighting with the hive and Crota they changed to adapt and in doing so leaned of the Hives sword logic and how it changes them.
With Siva, i think the scientist were trying to make a version of the vex that they could control, but with the programming in the vex network and the influences by the hive, it turned into what we see now. Siva is almost the begging’s of the Vex. If you look at how the Black garden god moves and the Siva swarm move, its almost identical. With the similar programming between the two, it shows why we see the fallen acting the way they did because the vex programming already had the ideology of the sword logic within it, along with the many years of the regular fallen fighting the hive they might have found books or other things talking about the sword logic. so they could have known of it even before having Siva.
So i think the Hive are the ones why there is an apparent connection between all the other species and the way they act.
The Vex weren’t made for combat, but they were aware of how to fight, specifically in the context of defending their designs. The Taken Minotaur & Minotaur cards are good examples of this:
You are a Minotaur. A walking foundry. Your first purpose is to think about construction — folding space and time into the design. Your second purpose is to eliminate threats to the design.
Minotaurs pack brutal heat, but most of their processing power is devoted to the physics of building massive Vex complexes, suspected to extend through multiple dimensions.
When the Vex enter the Overworld, they are able to almost immediately send in powerful “warrior Vex,” something that, if they had never considered violence, likely would have taken at least a few tests to get right- instead, they were able to kill “two thousand of Oryx’s Acolytes and ten thousand of his Thrall” right out of the (literal) gate.
Alongside this is the fact that Precursors carry guns, though given the fact that it’s the Vex, we can’t say definitively that the time line goes from Sol Primeval => Vex => Sol Imminent.
The Vex- Quria specifically- actually deduced the Sword Logic immediately:
“I’ll cut them apart,” Crota said. But just then, the Vex ritual-of-better-thoughts manifested a Mind called Quria, Blade Transform. Quria deduced the sword logic.
Additionally, the Vex are not completely homogeneous; Quria and its legion seem to be the only Vex that ‘followed’ the Sword Logic. The Virgo Prohibition, for example, isn’t decimating planets in the same way Oryx did. Following the Logic, while useful in the Overworld, seems to have ceased in the Vex Minds after Quria was Taken. (What the Heart in the Black Garden was may have something to do with the Darkness, and by extension the Logic, but any wandering down that road gets spinfoil-y pretty quickly.)
SIVA was created by Clovis Bray in order to assist with the Exodus Program. The technology was meant to be used for “[h]abitats, equipment, [and] repairs of all kinds.”
“Books” on the Sword Logic, as far as we know, do not exist outside of the Books of Sorrow (which were on the Dreadnaught and collected by the Guardian) and Toland’s journals + messages (which were, respectively, in Eris Morn’s possession & beamed to us straight from the Overworld). It’s fairly unlikely that the Fallen read up on the Sword Logic and decided to fight the Hive; desperation seems to be their motivating factor.
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Thank you for the clarification and explanation of it all. I was only going off of what I have heard and read so far.
I agree with your point here, but the information could have been in the worlds grave as well, since it held so much information on the hive and their gods. Just speculation since its hard to tell with a lot of the inconsistencies that information is given to us from bungie.
But you still can’t refute that the Hive are the possible reason for them to be all connected in some way. Since the Hive have been in direct contact with each race and with each interaction it seems to change what they are and how they act.
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It could have been, but there’s no record of the Fallen having accessed the World’s Grave. The Guardian can only get into the Grave after they defeat Kranox, the Graven, which means that up until that point there was no way for the Fallen to get into any information, even if the Grave contained the specifics of the Sword Logic. There’s some evidence that the Wolves were kicking around the Grave in HOW, but considering that we killed the Twisted Claws they presumably didn’t get any information.
Do you mean in terms of the Sword Logic? Before their arrival on Earth, there’s no evidence that the Hive and the Eliksni ever interacted, save for the nebulous “Darkness” that caused the Whirlwind. Additionally, no other races are following the Logic- the Fallen are a scavenging society, Calus has directly rebuked the Hive, and the Vex are still trying to achieve their grand design.
Yeah, I was meaning when they met with each other on earth and the moon. Also I was not really including the Cabal since the topic didn’t include them.
Technically speaking, the “Sword Logic” is actually the “natural state” of the universe, just turned into a paracausally-empowered religion for the Hive’s benefit. At least that’s how Seth sees it; he gets annoyed whenever it is equated to Darwinism.
So it is possible for someone to independently understand the Sword Logic, outside of the Hive, they’ll just need to access a paracausal power source in order to fully utilize its benefits. The Worms already knew of it before the proto-Hive made their Faustian pact, so it’s not unreasonable to assume others may have done the same.
In the Fallen’s case, the evidence that they have comprehended the Sword Logic can be found through the SIVA cards. Destinypedia’s article on the Sword Logic perhaps accurately sums this up, in the section dealing with the Fallen. Not exactly like the Sword Logic, not as the Hive practice it, but enough so that the Devil Splicers could be so bold and audacious enough to abduct Hive Ogres for their experiments without undue consequence.
The Sword Logic as a concept isn’t necessarily a Hive-specific thing (I’m reminded of Toland’s atoms comparison), but the way they enact the Logic certainly is. The Worms themselves didn’t constantly expand and destroy; the closest comparison to Oryx we have, the Cabal, don’t follow the Logic through their destruction, either.
Aksis seems to transcend flesh as opposed to transcending liminality altogether, as Oryx did. The article references Dormant SIVA: Fallen 3.4:
~consume enhance replicate~ Life’s procession is written in the corpses of those who came before. But here the great chain breaks. Here we step forward, freed from that which has always bound us. Here we speak as gods. We are they who created themselves. ~consume enhance replicate~
But 3.5 brings the conversation back to the Fallen’s machine gods specifically:
We are they who created themselves out of themselves and died in the creation. No longer merely the god in the machine, but the machine in the god. ~consume enhance replicate~ Here we rise, made equal at last to that which we worship. ~consume enhance replicate~
Unbounding themselves from the Servitors and ether seems to have been the Splicer’s main concern, as opposed following the Sword Logic:
SIVA can make you strong, but we can show you how to wield it, to free yourself from the bonds of Ether. Find us in the wasteland and bring us an offering of SIVA.
The Fallen’s concept of perfection seems unlike the Final Shape, and, as you’ve noted, the Splicers didn’t seem to follow the Hive’s particular brand of ‘kill everything.’
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Perhaps then they fulfill the Logic by perfecting themselves.
Do you mean by simply growing stronger? To do that they could simply keep their growth glands and not have them cut off. (Read your theory on Reddit. Can’t remember the website)
I don’t think perfection (which is a pretty nebulous concept itself) is the only thing that makes the Final Shape, well, Final. The Hive’s Sword Logic hinges on killing everything, and the last one left standing is the strongest, and therefore the only thing worthy to survive:
“This thing we believe — that we’re liberating the universe by devouring it, that we’re cutting out the rot, that we’re on course to join the final shape — I haven’t found a strict, eternal proof. We might yet be wrong.”
If I am defeated, I know that I will fall to something mighty. Something that craves might, something that loves what I love, which is the Deep, a principle and a power, the versatile, protean need to adapt and endure, to reach out and shape the universe entirely for that purpose, to mutate and redesign and test and iterate so that it can prevail, can seize existence and hold it, certain that this is everything, that there is nothing to life except living.
If a civilization cannot defend itself, it must be annihilated. If a King cannot hold his power, he must be betrayed. The worth of a thing can be determined only by one beautiful arbiter — that thing’s ability to exist, to go on existing, to remake existence to suit its survival.
The focus is always on killing others, not living oneself. Even Toland’s comparison centers around one thing “defeating” the other, though he might be talking about Hive Logic specifically and as such just drawing Logic-like parallels. Obviously, the Hive’s brand of Sword Logic is not the only brand, but the Logic does, at some level, require the destruction of the weak in order for the strongest to survive.
Meanwhile, Aksis wants to become a (demi)god, and Fallen religion worships machines as Gods. So, he becomes a machine, because to him machine = god. The Splicers did have the end goal of “evolution,” though this seems to be in terms of ending their reliance on ether and, by extension, the Servitors. There’s rumblings of Vosik wanting to kill stuff:
In due time, Vosik will ascend. All his people will. And worlds will fall.
But the Splicers seem to want ‘perfection’ for its own sake, instead of following the Logic. It depends on how broadly Sword Logic is being defined; if any pecking order is ‘Logical,’ then the Forge- and by extension the Fallen- are practicing the Sword Logic.
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If we’re to apply the Sword Logic in its most broadist, universalist interpretation possible, we need to look no further than Toland and his description of the atoms. Even something as mundane as you and I breathing are fulfilling the Logic because we defeat the possibility of not breathing by the mere act of breathing.
But I get what you mean. The Sword Logic ultimately means challenging the strongest thing to defeat it, and the Fallen don’t do that. But SIVA is something that can remake things in its own image, and it started doing that to the Fallen with their encouragement, so there’s that.
I’m not sure I follow you. What theory do you mean?
The Fallen lower arms are amputated and their ether ration shortened to humiliate them and put them in a lower place. The upper-arms seem to be irreplaceable, evidenced by Variks’ upper metal arms. Its the ether that what allows them to grow bigger and taller.
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