Are the Vex, the Hive and SIVA all interconnected?


#1

I must mention at the start this is not entirely my theory. This was a theory discussed by both me and a fellow lore enthusiast TKfromthe90s. He also should receive credit for this theory.

Firstly, we must start at the beginning. At the Book of Sorrows. Specifically, Chapter XLII: <>|<>|<>. In this chapter, we see a confrontation between Oryx and Quria, Blade Transform. We can also see the thought processes of Quria, in directives. This is the thought process we would most likely assume for the Vex, as they are machines after all. However, one directive that caught our attention was this line, made by Quria:

<insinuate|<subvert|<replicate

It was from this one line that our theory began to unfold, as this layout that the words were in very closely resembles that of the command directive set for SIVA, which as we know is:

<consume|<enhance|<replicate

We theorised that perhaps, based on the research the Ishtar team carried out on them, Clovis Bray somehow managed to code the SIVA nanites to use a similar form of self replication to that of the Vex, as we know that the Vex have the capabilities of replicating themselves, as well as construct massive structures incredibly fast (this can be seen most clearly on planets such as Nessus, Venus, and certainly Mercury). However, our sole focus will be the structure based on Venus.

Now, we began struggling to find a link between the Ishtar Research team and Clovis Bray, other than simply being two scientific research laboratories, until, whilst scouring the grimoire, we found in the card “Ghost Fragment: Vex 3” on of the researchers stating:

DUANE-MCNAIDH: I wish I’d taken that job at Clovis.

This is were the majority of the theory is slightly speculative. We theorised that these researchers perhaps either shared or used their research to apply to Ishtar, or at least share the information. This occurred before the events unfolding in these cards (hence why the man in question is referring to the past), as then the researchers replicated their consciousnesses to enter the Vex network and so on.

However, we also believed that perhaps, from what we see in the Books of Sorrow, some of the Vex’s core programming has been adapted from the Hive, most importantly, this fight we see between Oryx and Quria. Just before Quria is ‘Taken’ by Oryx, he sends a transmission out across the Vex network, sharing his deductions of the Sword Logic. We know the Vex received this and understood it to some extend, and can see this influence through their “Throne Spaces”, most notably, the Vault of Glass,l which was likely based around this theory.

But, what if some of these subroutines of the Vex were, unintentionally, transferred into SIVA (again, speculation), through the code that it is programmed to run. This in turn would mean, by proxy, the Hive philosophy would also have some kind of influence over the subroutines of SIVA.

This influence can be seen in the Rise of Iron expansion, in which we encounter the “Archons Forge”, a place where fallen come to fight opponents, worship their new god, SIVA, and in turn, grow stronger through comabt , and the art of killing. As well as this, we also see the replication chamber where Aksis resides, yet another example of an area potentially based off the Hives “Throne Spaces”.

I would again like to thank my fellow lore enthusiast, and good friend, TKfromthe90s, for helping to create this wild theory.

Do feel free to ask questions, and I am sure both of us will be willing to answer them.


Do the Fallen know about the Sword Logic?
#2

Was great working with you on this!


#3

That is a really intriguing understanding of the Archon’s Forge. The Vex link to SIVA makes a kind of sense, considering what we know of how the nanites seem to have their own hive mind similar to the Vex. Its primary goal seems to be replication, however, which is much more primitive than Vex directives.

That could, however, be an interpretation of the ultimate Vex goal: existing as a (or the) core function of the universe. Hmm. Awesome post!


#4

I’m not a programmer by any means, but some cursory Googling says that |> and <| are pipe operators, meaning that they’re not necessarily connected to either SIVA or the Vex but simply how Bungie writes some of the ‘code’ in the grimoire.

When you say “these researchers,” who do you mean? As for Duane-McNaidh’s comment itself, I think he’s simply grousing about Maya and Chioma’s PDA, given the lines just before:

SHIM: Once we try to make the call, the Vex may…react. So let’s all savor this last moment of stability.

SUNDARESH: [indistinct sounds]

SHIM: You two are adorable.

DUANE-MCNIADH: I wish I’d taken that job at Clovis.

And Shim seems to imply that it’s a fairly common remark in Vex 4:

“So it’s just a way to make everything more complicated.” Duane-McNiadh sighs. "It doesn’t fix anything. Nothing ever does! I should’ve taken that job at— "

“You would’ve hated it at Clovis,” Dr. Shim says. “We both know you’re happier here.” Duane-McNiadh stands stunned by this courtesy, and then they both pretend to ignore each other.

We don’t really know the purpose of the Vault. There are guesses within the lore, but there’s no real evidence suggesting that the Vault is modeled after the Hive’s throne worlds. Atheon does not exist outside of the Vault, and it does not have a ‘first form’ that we kill before it retreats into the Vault. Additionally, the power of the Vault of Glass is self-contained, unlike the Ascendent Hive, who can manifest their powers outside their thrones in several ways.

Similarly to the Vault, there’s no ‘first’ Aksis fight. Regarding the Forge, the card for the activity discusses the nature of the combat:

The Archon’s Forge is an ancient Fallen rite of passage, twisted to utilize the Devil Splicers’ latest discovery.

Fallen seek to improve their station within the Splicers’ quickly-evolving caste by making offerings of dormant SIVA to the Forge. Their worth is then tested in a trial-by-combat.

Given that the Fallen have been a scavenging society since the Whirlwind, it’s not unheard of that they have such a harsh pecking order even without outside influence. Machine worship, specifically of SIVA, is also reflected in Eliksni tradition from before the Whirlwind.


#5

If you’re looking for a link between Ishtar and Clovis…I might have a thread for you to follow.

What if their “collaboration” was done in increments (Even by todays standards their involvement might be seen as a monopoly. It would make sense to keep it off the books. Especially if what they were doing wasn’t legal per se.) And this is just conjecture but what if Clovis and Ishtar had a deal where one would be hired to implement a new project and the other would come in behind them to “check the work.” In doing so they would have active sites they could improve whatever they were working on. I.e. the Arcology.


#6

I agree, the whole theory seems to stand on very shaky ground, by assuming code similarity means a connection. While I like the idea and thoughts that were put into this there are a lot of gaps like for example, why is rasputin in control of a technology that was mysteriously given to Clovis Bray,1000 of years after Quoria Blade Transform fought Oryx. Are you suggesting the Hive sneaked the SivaTech into Clovis Brays experiments?


#7

Tassadar I’m not quite sure if you’re asking how or why rasputin would claim the SIVA (I have ideas on both but I’d like to make sure I point my theory correctly first) Also keep in mind the rules of time do not apply when speaking of the vex


#8

I’m not sure I follow your example. Clovis Bray were the creators of SIVA, and it would make sense for Rasputin to have access to it seeing as SIVA main replication chamber is based on Earth, and Rasputin was the warmind of earth. Also, as hipnuts said, with the Vex, time is a concept we don’t need to take into account. As well as this, Quria deduced the sword logic during his war with Oryx, and sent back this data into the Vex network. So the Vex, being a massive supercomputer in effect, would have obtained this, and still run its functions over these 1000s of years. Therefore these systems would gave still been in effect when the Ishtar Team were studying the Vex.


#9

yes, you are right, but with that argument you can put every discussion to a rest, when time and space doesn’t matter, pretty much everything is possible or can be reversed. Yet, the vex seem to believe they are meant to be extinguished at some point in time, so they don’t seem almighty even though they have control over time to some extend.
however I can’t shake off the feeling (just a feeling) that Destiny in the end will not only be about darkness vs light, but also about machines vs. organic life forms. Exos and Warminds seem to be somehow connected (I think I heard that Rasputin totally overreacted when Fellwinter tried to question him about that connection) and both are pretty much creations of the golden age due to the traveller, that is also reffered to as the great machine. Vex seem to be robotic but then their essense is a fliud, that according to our ghost in a mission on nessus, is organic and living. When Asher gets infected his arm is transformed to a robot arm.
If Siva is indeed connected to the Vex it wouldnt surprise me in the end. But I can’t see the Hive being a part of this atm.


#10

Can you bring up the reference about them believing they’ll be extinguished? (Im not familiar with that text)

Why would it matter if they “seem” almighty? And if they reside outside of space and time what does it matter if their physicality ends in the distant future?

If the sword logic has infected the vex and the vex, in turn, SIVA then the hive are already involved.

I’m not quite clear on how an organics/machine war relates to this…


#11

hm yes I can find it, it is a very popular concept I think Byf dedicated a whole video to it. I’ll send the video link later in, but I found this on a quick search for ThePattern. https://www.bungie.net/de/Forums/Post/188439918?sort=0&page=0
see alao my comment below.


#12

Isn’t this the ending to the Paradox mission? I do find this more likely now, although not because of Oryx. Instead, we should look at what the Taken Vex were doing. If they access the Vex network, it could allow for the whole Vex network to be transformed.


#13

yes, I didn’t find the video yet, but I will. I think it is not he general one about vex but that about the Paradox mission as you stated. However I have found proof that the pattern is actually what the Vex see as their inevitable extinction. I am sure it can be found in the Grimmoire but it’s been a long time since I read into it. see here for a first glance https://www.bungie.net/de/Forums/Post/188439918?sort=0&page=0


#14

yeah you might have a point here. I am still not sure why the Vex would adopt the sword logic, but they do seem to worship the darkness, at least in the black garden. so they might have a deeper connection to the hive that we simply don’t know about yet.


#15

Great points, all of them. We know Clovis and Isthar were both trying to scoop up all the brightest minds in the System. It would surprise me if Clovis had spies within the Collective.


#16

I do agree that they are connected in some way or fashion, but on the other hand I think most of the connections between them all are because of certain events that changed what they became.

For example, when the vex first ran into the hive because of Crota experimenting and accidentally opens a gate to the Vex, which then changes how the Vex see and operate from now on, since the Vex where not made for combat. After the many decades of fighting with the hive and Crota they changed to adapt and in doing so leaned of the Hives sword logic and how it changes them.

With Siva, i think the scientist were trying to make a version of the vex that they could control, but with the programming in the vex network and the influences by the hive, it turned into what we see now. Siva is almost the begging’s of the Vex. If you look at how the Black garden god moves and the Siva swarm move, its almost identical. With the similar programming between the two, it shows why we see the fallen acting the way they did because the vex programming already had the ideology of the sword logic within it, along with the many years of the regular fallen fighting the hive they might have found books or other things talking about the sword logic. so they could have known of it even before having Siva.

So i think the Hive are the ones why there is an apparent connection between all the other species and the way they act.


#17

The Vex weren’t made for combat, but they were aware of how to fight, specifically in the context of defending their designs. The Taken Minotaur & Minotaur cards are good examples of this:

You are a Minotaur. A walking foundry. Your first purpose is to think about construction — folding space and time into the design. Your second purpose is to eliminate threats to the design.

Minotaurs pack brutal heat, but most of their processing power is devoted to the physics of building massive Vex complexes, suspected to extend through multiple dimensions.

When the Vex enter the Overworld, they are able to almost immediately send in powerful “warrior Vex,” something that, if they had never considered violence, likely would have taken at least a few tests to get right- instead, they were able to kill “two thousand of Oryx’s Acolytes and ten thousand of his Thrall” right out of the (literal) gate.

Alongside this is the fact that Precursors carry guns, though given the fact that it’s the Vex, we can’t say definitively that the time line goes from Sol Primeval => Vex => Sol Imminent.

The Vex- Quria specifically- actually deduced the Sword Logic immediately:

“I’ll cut them apart,” Crota said. But just then, the Vex ritual-of-better-thoughts manifested a Mind called Quria, Blade Transform. Quria deduced the sword logic.

Additionally, the Vex are not completely homogeneous; Quria and its legion seem to be the only Vex that ‘followed’ the Sword Logic. The Virgo Prohibition, for example, isn’t decimating planets in the same way Oryx did. Following the Logic, while useful in the Overworld, seems to have ceased in the Vex Minds after Quria was Taken. (What the Heart in the Black Garden was may have something to do with the Darkness, and by extension the Logic, but any wandering down that road gets spinfoil-y pretty quickly.)

SIVA was created by Clovis Bray in order to assist with the Exodus Program. The technology was meant to be used for “[h]abitats, equipment, [and] repairs of all kinds.”

“Books” on the Sword Logic, as far as we know, do not exist outside of the Books of Sorrow (which were on the Dreadnaught and collected by the Guardian) and Toland’s journals + messages (which were, respectively, in Eris Morn’s possession & beamed to us straight from the Overworld). It’s fairly unlikely that the Fallen read up on the Sword Logic and decided to fight the Hive; desperation seems to be their motivating factor.


#18

Thank you for the clarification and explanation of it all. I was only going off of what I have heard and read so far.

I agree with your point here, but the information could have been in the worlds grave as well, since it held so much information on the hive and their gods. Just speculation since its hard to tell with a lot of the inconsistencies that information is given to us from bungie.

But you still can’t refute that the Hive are the possible reason for them to be all connected in some way. Since the Hive have been in direct contact with each race and with each interaction it seems to change what they are and how they act.


#19

It could have been, but there’s no record of the Fallen having accessed the World’s Grave. The Guardian can only get into the Grave after they defeat Kranox, the Graven, which means that up until that point there was no way for the Fallen to get into any information, even if the Grave contained the specifics of the Sword Logic. There’s some evidence that the Wolves were kicking around the Grave in HOW, but considering that we killed the Twisted Claws they presumably didn’t get any information.

Do you mean in terms of the Sword Logic? Before their arrival on Earth, there’s no evidence that the Hive and the Eliksni ever interacted, save for the nebulous “Darkness” that caused the Whirlwind. Additionally, no other races are following the Logic- the Fallen are a scavenging society, Calus has directly rebuked the Hive, and the Vex are still trying to achieve their grand design.


#20

Yeah, I was meaning when they met with each other on earth and the moon. Also I was not really including the Cabal since the topic didn’t include them.