Hey guys,
In the Tyrannocide 1 lore tab where Mara Sov is thinking about the Sword logic and something called she refers to as the Bomb. I was wondering if any of you know what she is talking about.
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New to the commons as a poster but I’ve been a longtime lurker. Here are my thoughts:
My take on Mara’s allusion to a bomb vs the sword logic is that, in her mind, she’s working to undo the basic logic that defines the sword logic to begin with. The sword logic cuts, therefore reducing a thing (anything) to its simplest state. Life or death. In this the sword logic derives truth.
If the sword logic reduces a thing to its base form, what if the sword logic cuts something that cuts back (or blows up) when reduced? By nature, it would undermine the core truth of the sword logic - that something cut doesn’t render that thing to a simpler form but to a reality that cuts back.
I think on some level, that’s what Mara implies when she rages out at our ghost about not understanding her plan. She seeks to undo sword logic at its fundamental theory. Of course, raging at Ghost is ridiculous, especially considering how fundamentally important to her plan we are, but she’s always been an imperious character.
Would be interested to know what others think here. This is entirely my own conjecture.
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Thank you so much for the help. I like the way you described it.
Fruit (maybe even THE Mr. Fruit?!?) -
Another perspective is that instead of undermining the core duality of the sword logic, her plan is to create a scheme that is complex, with multiple dimensions, that uses the sword logic in a way that contributes to her outcome.
Instead of disprove it, use it as merely a part of her grand plan.
I don’t have much idea on what this would be, but given that we’ve been running into Savathun and Xivu Arath’s goons all over the Dreaming City, my guess is she’s got a few mountains to climb before such a reality is realized.
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Not Mr. Fruit (just a fan). Thank you for the input. Always happy to hear ideas from people who know the lore.
My Name is Byf did a fantastic interpretation of the Sword/Bomb Logic in his raid along, something that I think truly resonates with what might be the intended concept; I’ll do my best to explain his interpretation of that concept here and do my best to explain it in my own words. The way that he described it is truly amazing as I’d never put two and two together until I heard it:
We know several things about the significance of the shape of things in Destiny; The shape of the Traveler, the Sword Logic, motes of light and darkness, etc. We know that the Single most complex 2D shape is a ‘circle’. We know that the simplest 2D shape is a ‘triangle’. Now, what is a ‘circle’ in 3 dimensions? A ‘sphere’. One might imply from this logic that a ‘triangle’ in its simplest form would or could resemble something along the lines of a ‘sword’ (additionally, the argument has been made that a ‘line’ is the simplest 2D ‘shape’ and that the line corresponds with the sword). However, we know that the simplest 3D shape possible is a ‘tetrahedron’… now where have we seen shapes like tetrahedrons in Destiny and its lore… The original exotic Grimoire card art for the Darkness, the end of Destiny 2 vanilla campaign cutscene (referred to as pyramid ships, but do not have 5 sides, only 4), and Motes of Darkness (Gambit motes if you’re unfamiliar).
We know that the Sword Logic is the most basic form of power; kill the thing with your Sword, assert your will over its own, dominate and destroy it and gain power from it. The Sword is the bridge, the connecting point over killer and killed. We know from the Books of Sorrow that the Sword Logic is the most basic and fundamental ‘Final Shape’ of the universe; if something does not have the power or will to survive, then it should be eradicated from existence, its destruction feeding the destroyer.
Now before we hit the final note, I just wanna state that this is where things get a little bit wonky, but when you see the connections, it becomes much clearer.
The Sword is the simplest weapon, while the Bomb is the most complex. Individually, the Sword is just one component, a sharpened blade, while the Bomb is a multitude of individual components that are completely harmless (triggering switch, outer casing, firing mechanism, a combination of various chemicals, various tiny electronics or explosives, etc.) Every single complex little component necessary for building a bomb is generally harmless or useless separately; but when combined together, organized and fitted in such a way, the components are no longer harmless, they are now far deadlier than the Sword. And as a reminder, the single most complex 3D shape is a ‘Sphere’, a shape of infinite complexity. The ‘Sword’ is of the Darkness as the Bomb is of the Light.
When mentioned in-game and in lore, the Sword Logic is always associated with the Hive, Taken, Worm Gods and the Darkness. The Bomb Logic seems to imply the exact opposite of the Sword Logic, and we know the exact opposite of the Darkness is the Light; meaning that when referenced, it is reasonable to assume that the Bomb Logic is the logic of the Light, the Light’s final perfect shape for the universe, and the underlying concept of Complexity over Simplicity.
The parallels we can draw to support this claim:
The Traveler - The Darkness Ships
Motes of Light - Motes of Darkness
Circles/Spheres - Tringles/Tetrahedrons
Creation & Preservation of Life - Destruction & Domination of Life
Complexity - Simplicity
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Wow that’s very helpful thank you so much!
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Nowhere does it say that the bomb logic is the philosophy of the Light or that they are in any way connected. The phrase “bomb logic” doesn’t even appear anywhere in the lore (at least not on Ishtar Collective). It seems to be something the community has coined to describe the logic Mara came up with from her dream. For lack of any official term, “bomb logic” seems to be the most suitable to use in the meantime though.
The bomb from the bomb logic is described as a weapon or a way of fighting. From Palingensis II:
There is a war, and its name is existence. There are two ways to fight—one is the sword, and one is the bomb.
By the bomb, I mean that way of being that is complex and schematic and that must attain a criticality to attack. The way that is made from new things and that triumphs by the arrangement of intricacy. This way is known to those who study themselves. Take any component of the bomb in isolation, and you will say, “What is this? I cannot understand its purpose.” Yet in it is the possibility of a fire.
From Tyrannocide III:
“A sword can be part of a bomb if the swordstrike is the detonation mechanism,” Mara says. “It’s impossible for a cellular automata game to change its own rules, but it is possible to create subgames with their own rules, and for those subgames to yield advantage in the master game.”
From Tyrannocide V:
She has been thinking of a logic of her own, of secrets and hidden designs. The universe has not grown simpler in its age. Wherever life can begin, it has begun, and even in some places where sensible folk expect it should not. The great tendency has been toward intricacy, toward sophistication, toward deep thought and richer ways of being. A sword is everywhere edged, but the pieces of a bomb do not look at all like weapons until they are assembled.
Note that Mara says here that the bomb logic is “a logic of her own”, not that it is a logic of the Light. Moreover, the purpose of the bomb logic - to act as a weapon, to attack, to destroy, all things that are implicit in the very name “bomb” - goes against the philosophy of the Light. In the Books of Sorrow, the Leviathan says that the Light gives and fosters life. From VIII: Leviathan:
—Sky builds gentle places, safe for life++
++Beloved Fundament, refuge of trillions—
—The Sky treasures this rich place++
++The Sky builds new life++
—Against the onset of ruin—
++Towards a gentle world++
Even the worm gods, who wage war against the Sky/Light, also say that the Sky promotes life, not death. From XI: Conquerers:
For millions of years the Leviathan caged us here. It is a pawn of the Sky, a philosophy of cosmic slavery. The Sky seeds civilizations predicated on a terrible lie — that right actions can prevent suffering. That pockets of artificial rules can defy the final, beautiful logic.
In XIX: Crusaders, the worm gods speak about the Ammonite, who followed the philosophy of the Sky:
The Ammonite occupied a piece of reality. They rented their existence on fraudulent terms, making themselves happy and fat, fencing themselves in soft lies and sweet apocrypha. Saying: ‘we are peaceful and good, we harm nothing.’ Their golden age was a cancer. They did nothing to advance the cause of life! They burnt up time and matter and thought on this solipsistic, onanistic pursuit of safety, insulating themselves from death, making a regressive pocket of useless stability. When they could have helped whittle the universe towards its final, perfect form!
Why would the logic of the Light/Sky be one that involves attacking and destruction, as the bomb logic does, when that goes against their philosophy?
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Also adding on to @DrJazzyBebop Mara Sov is not a Guardian or even a creature of the light. Awoken are supposed to be a sort of balance because they draw power from both. So her “logic” would not be just the light.
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Just spitballing here, but Mara is a representative of neutrality in many ways–often shown by her indifference to both dark and light.
While bombs are shown as a symbol of complexity here, they are also in many ways a method of leveling the field.
A sword requires action from its wielder for each life taken and each choice made, but a bomb once detonated will destroy anything around it unscrupulously.
I think the kind of complexity we’re seeing here is not the complexity of the light but of a philosophy that seeks to balance light and dark, which may involve Mara having to fight both of them simultaneously.
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Cool idea 
. My question to it is this: Mara is supposed to represent neutrality and a balance, however she seems to only fight for the Light when she actually takes action. Is Mara truly neutral? And if she is, how has she fought against the light without our knowing?
@NinjaBagel97
I must disagree with the line argument. A line is 1 dimension and thus all shapes in any other dimension are comprised of it. If one is to press forward with the argument that the Sword and the Line are metaphorically related, that makes the Bomb and the Sword intrinsic siblings, which fits well with the Veil (tetrahedrons as you mentioned) being the antithesis (much like positrons are siblings to electrons) to the Traveler (the sphere).