Did Calus meet the Nine?

Calus is the Emperor of the Cabal. Their supreme ruler. Or he was, up until he was overthrown and exiled by Ghaul in the rebellion known as the “Midnight Coup”.

In this Midnight Coup, Ghaul, along with many of Calus’ other subordinates, including his own daughter, overthrew Calus, seeing him as unfit to lead their once mighty and glorious empire, instead believing he had taken away and detracted from what was once its true values. When Calus was eventually beaten, instead of killing him outright, Ghaul exiled him, instead putting Calus on his Leviathan, and setting the course of it into “Unknown Space”.

This course location is a very important point to pick up on, and leads me to my belief that Calus did not encounter the Darkness (or pyramid ships) as many people perhaps thought.

My belief is instead what I say in the title: That Calus instead met the Nine.

Firstly, we should look at the importance of the Leviathan’s course. We only ever see the term “Unknown Space” used in that specific way in one other place: The Third Spire. When going to the third spire, we see that is located in Unknown Space, and we see what seems to be a large hole in the middle of nowhere

My belief is that this is not simply some strange black hole somewhere in our system, but instead some form of gateway into the current residence of the mysterious entity(s) known as “The Nine”.

This gateway we see may not be the only gateway, and there may be many others located around our universe. This is how Calus was able to enter, and encounter the Nine. We can see that the Third Spire bears no resemblance to any location we have seen before, in our world, or in fact our very universe.

Some more evidence to perhaps link this to what Calus encountered can be found in the lore for the legendary raid sword “It stared back”:

At the edge of the universe, I stared into the infinite deep. It stared back, and was pleased. I would become the herald of its victory, and bear witness for all creation.
The Leviathan came to a halt before a wall of infinite void. It could go no further, as the navigation system had suffered a cataclysmic failure. The course that the conspirators had set crossed a space that simply didn’t exist.
I don’t know how long we traveled. Years? Millennia? Time had ceased to have meaning as I wallowed in the despair of my exile. But this event shook me out of my stupor. At the edge of the universe, we had found something. No—we had found a nothing.
From the seat of my observation chamber, I stared into the perfect void. Only I, a god, could understand what I witnessed. It was a thing greater than myself. And if such a thing exists, then I, too, can become more.

Notice how he says that he stares into the “infinite void”. If we observe how the ‘hole’ looks, it looks very much like what he states, an infinite abyss, void of anything. This mysterious wall of infinite void could well be the gateway into eternity, the current whereabouts of the Nine.

Secondly, we should look at what Calus says to us when we defeat him in the Leviathan Raid. In one speech to us, he says:

I possess the means to true agency beyond your feeble light. Seek me out and perhaps I’ll show you how to grow fat from strength. So you still believe you are on the right side? Mull it over and enjoy my gifts to you.

Notice he specifically uses the word “agency”. An agency, in that case, should have agents. And who do we know that has agents. The Nine. Xur and the Emissary are just a couple of examples of agents under the Nine’s control. However, he states that this power is “beyond [our] feeble light”. Does this mean that the Nine are not our allies? This is still a potentiality, as we know from Trials of the Nine that the Nine have a much more ‘violent’ philosophy, with their sole focus on annihilating their enemies. Also, we know they do not work under our rules, as it was them who released Skolas, the Wolf Kell, causing the events that unfolded in the House of Wolves DLC in Year 1.

So, in conclusion, after the coup that led to Calus’ exile, Calus was send on a course into “Unknown Space”. When he finally came to stop, he found himself staring into some wall of infinite void. This was not just any void, but instead the gateway to an unknown power, The Nine. He encountered this true agency, whose power was beyond anything our light has able to produce. And not only this, but the Nine are not as friendly as some may have otherwise perceived.

But again, this is all just mere theory. Would love to hear other peoples thoughts and takes on this.


Love this man. I’ve actually thought this for a while after getting that dialogue encounter mentioning “agency”. Good job getting this theory completely laid out man :+1:

I don’t think that’s the type of “agency” Calus is referencing. There are a few other definitions that fit the sentence structure better:

the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power

a person or thing through which power is exerted or an end is achieved

So, the sentence is more like:

I possess the means to true [power] beyond your feeble light.

Additionally, the ‘agency’ you’re referring to is a noun, so it’d have to be constructed as either

I possess the means to [a] true agency beyond your feeble light.


I possess the means to [the] true agency beyond your feeble light.

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This is a good point. Thank you for letting me know! I believe if he is referring to a true power in our universe, it would still refer to the Nine. We know that the Nine are an unknown entity with an impressive amount of power. So it would make sense for them to have agents to enact their will. This is mainly what I was referring to.

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I actually think he could have encountered the ahamkara/worm gods just as well as the Nine, because of him using " oh champion mine" Which would still explain why he has found power beyond our feeble light.

Are we sure the worms have a trademark on the “oh X mine” sentence format? Could well be that anyone operating on that higher level might speak that way

That may well be. I believe that MyelinGames did a video recently where he speculated the Nine to be Ahamkara. Hope we’ll find out soon.

Before the Midnight Coup. Calus possessed some bones, which he said would help him restore his power. These were most likely ahamkara bones, as we know that they whisper to people, which can be seen with ahamkara bone armour, such as the Skull of Dire Ahamkara and Spine of Young Ahamkara. This is most likely what caused the “oh champion mine”

Yes, and there very well may be some huge link between Nine,Ahamkara, and the Worm Gods. When i start spinfoiling, i usually think that the Worm Gods (or Wyrm Gods?) Are basicly millenium old ahamkara locked away slowly succumbing to the darkness below, becoming the worm gods. I believe in this case that the Nine are made up of other ahamkara. I have a feeling that he has met a wish dragon somewhere, or maybe encountered the worm gods through the hive. (Calus mentions he explored the hive, and their weak “slave of their own worm” format) Who knows, but i think the only thing that cant be ignored is the “oh mine…” Cause that is one thing that for god damn certainty (yes nothing is certain with bungles) isnt just a coincidence… They are not showing us 3 Different types of races, species whatever using the exact same method of talking…

I didnt say the Ahamkara are made up, what i meant in that sentence was if the Nine were all ahamkara (all made up of ahamkaras) :stuck_out_tongue: my english isnt great, so apologize for the confusion. Yes i do believe they are capable of that, tbh i believe many things are possible and exciting, i am just scared that we are digging way deeper than what bungie meant in the end… But i do believe that either the Ahamkara are capable of channeling light and darkness, OR they are masking their darkness, their evil and sinister intentions by promoting themselves as wish dragons, good beings that will grant you whatever you could want. Its like darkness in a light costume if you follow me? I think there is alot of this, more than we know in this universe. Darkness and light imitating eachother. Its essentially what creates this grey area, where alot of debate ends up. Is the Nine DARK? LIGHT? Or both? Or neither?? Is the ahamkara weapons of the traveler? the first protectors? Or are they beings of the darkness trying to lure people with light, and hope? We see several corrupted guardian stories start very subtle implying that ahamkara helped them SHINE, until what raised them eventually proceeds to drown them. Corrupt them.

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It is known that the Ahamkara followed the Traveller into the system, much like how the worm gods were with the Darkness when Oryx encountered it. However, like I mentioned earlier, Calus’ only real encounter with Ahamkara that we know of is the bones he possessed before and during the Midnight Coup, until they were destroyed by his daughter, who crushed them in his hands. However, I do not believe the Ahamkara and the Nine to be one and the same.

Also with regards to what you said about what side the Nine are on, I do not think they are on anybodies side. They seem to have no interest in what we have done, until we killed Ghaul and awakened the Traveller at the end of D2. Their main interests still remain a mystery

However, there is one thing wuite interesting which does link the Worm Gods/Ahamkara to both Calus and the Osmium King. Both obtained a version of the worm (the Osmium King with the dead worm, and Calus with the bones) and both had prosperous kingdoms. However, both if their empires were destroyed by some civil coup (Osmium King with the Helium Drinkers, and Calus with Ghaul and his subjects). So could it be that this is the price they paid for asking for so much from the Worms/Ahamkara?

Exactly, and that is one of the many theories out there, that the worm gods are the equivalent of what the ahamkara was for the traveler of light, but for the darkness instead. I do not believe the Nine to be ahamkara either, i do believe however it is one of many plausible theories. I am more inclined to think it would be Ghosts rather than ahamkara, but i think theres more to it, than one single answer like dragons or ghosts. I believe there is an interesting link between Calus’ Shadow Dream Team and the Nine’s sudden peak of interest in us.

Well if we remember, the Nine have had an interest ever since we defeated Ghaul/awakened the Traveller. And we know that Ghaul is an enemy of Calus. So if Calus has spoken with the Nine, then it would make sense for them to gain an interest in us when defeating one of his enemies.

Yes! That is exactly some of what ive been speculating about. The story about the Cabal empire and the coup suddenly seem like a retelling of the books of sorrow. In a more shallow way ofcourse, so far. I do believe, as you point out, that there is definitely something there. It does sound alot like Calus was betrayed like the sisters, driven to exploration for vengeance, like the sisters, exploring something more powerful than our feeble light, just like the sisters. The fact that calus mentions the hive and their slavery to the worm gods tribute thingie, mentions he found something powerful, something he grew fat from strenght from, something thatm akes our light seem like nothing. It points very much to the fact that Calus encountered the worm gods.

Yeah, but this is where it gets tricky. It points to alot of things. Is there any link between the worm gods and the nine? besides some vague spinfoiling about the leviathan intelligence?

Again, I cannot see this being the case. I refer you to the point I made about the weapon lore for “It stared back”. This specifically references a wall of void, which does not match what the sisters encountered with the Worm Gods. The Worm Gods resided in a gas giant, Fundament. Notice also that the Ahamkara are known to reside near Jupiter, another gas giant. This leads me to believe that their preferred habitat. So for them to suddenly inhabit a strange “wall of void” would not make sense.

So I couldn’t see there being any link between the two. I can see where your coming from, but I cannot see there being enough solid evidence, unlike the evidence I provided supporting Calus meeting the Nine in my post

I am really not underlining anything here. I myself find too many theories to be interesting that i can say anything for sure. But yes the void wall lore as you mentioned is different from anything the sisters encountered, as far as we know, but that does not remove all the other similarities to the story of the sisters. I do believe It Stared Back implies more than anything that it had to do with the Nine, But since we really dont know what the ahamkara are exactly, what the worm gods are, or what the Nine are, One does not exclude the other, if you get me? All im trying to say is, i think your theory is completely in the right direction,and even one of the more evidential, but not necessarily debunking other possible theories.

I see what you mean. And there is some potential that they may indeed bu Ahamkara. However, drawing evidence from that we have seen in the grimoire and in the BoS, there is a lot of uncertainty with the Ahamkara indeed being the Nine. Bt as you said, it cannot be debunked yet, until more evidence is shown, or Bungo actually decide to show us.