Eris Morn/Savathun connection- With D2 thoughts

First off, check out this theory if you have time.ûn_the_queen_of_final_shapes/

(It’s not mine, all credit to OP. The rest of this page is my thoughts)

This theory states that Savathun is the heart of the Black Garden. Now, we know that the D1 base game was full of plot holes, so take that theory with a grain of salt. My idea is that Eris and Savathun are connected. Other people have said this, but I have more proof with D2’s coming.

In D1, the black garden (maybe Savathun) was defeated. Shortly after, Eris appeared. She helped you defeat Crota and Oryx. Then there was RoI, where she didn’t do much but was in the Tower still. Now we’re at D2, Eris hasn’t been seen since the Tower fell (as said by the Vanguard), and Savathun is referenced many times (Savathun’s Song, Lake of Shadows strikes) The timing of all this is perfect. Eris consistently disappears when Savathun appears. This is decent proof enough, but what about motive?

In the Books of Sorrow, Oryx, Savathun, and Xivu Arath like to kill each other. A lot. This lines up with Eris’s goal. There’s the motive right there. To make this even more interesting, Eris feels mental sensations about the Hive (fingers on my mind, etc). Crota has no mind related powers, and while Oryx does control the Taken, Eris is not Taken. This leads me to think that she is being manipulated, maybe unknowingly, by Savathun. Savathun is known for mental tricks and “fingers on my mind” seems right up her alley.

So yeah, there’s my first theory for the collective. Excited to hear what you guys think.

Hive Loremaster


Do you think that the Garden is Savathun’s throne world? If so, and if she was the Heart, she should not be coming back for D2. Ascendent Hive that die in their throne worlds die irrevocably:

If my echoes are killed, and I am killed in the material world, then I will be driven back to my throne the Dreadnaught. If my Court and my throne can be beaten, if I am confronted in my throne, if I am defeated there, then I will die. My work will end.

Re: Eris only appearing after allegedly-Savathun dies, she had no reason to appear in the base game. The Black Garden is considered a Vex entity; besides, she was within the Hellmouth until her arrival in TDB. With regards to D2, she says herself that she is going to further investigate the Hive:

“I must find a new path through the night. The Hive are vast, and ancient. A power from far beyond our realm. If we are ever truly to face them, ever truly to put an end to their hate, I must step beyond the safety of the City.”

Considering she is all but alone in this room, talking to an unconscious Asher, there’s little reason for her whole speech- her whole reason for leaving- to be a lie. Also, we don’t know when Eris left the Tower. She could have left immediately after ROI or AOT; does that count as “consistently disappear[ing] when Savathun appears”?

I don’t think vengeance is the same thing as the Sword Logic. Oryx, Savathun, and Xivu Arath kill each other out of love:

I love mighty Xivu more than a moon loves the tide. I’ll kill her for this. Over and over, forever and ever.

While Eris is still acting based on her anger and, well, vengeance:

The voices are as loud as ever. My nightmares just as bitter. My coal-black hatred burns as hot.

Was Eriana-3 being manipulated by Savathun? She said that she’d “butcher any [Hive] who stand in my way with even the darkest blade,” which also seems to align with the Hive’s goals.


Valid points, however, Eris was a hidden working for Ikora when she ventured into the Abyss.

We know that Eris is part of the Hidden post-TDB:

Eris returns to the shadows time and time again, operating as one of Ikora Rey’s Hidden—a clandestine group of Guardians tasked with silently infiltrating enemy strongholds and gathering vital intel for the Warlocks.

However, we don’t know if she was part of the Hidden when she entered the Hellmouth. In TDB, Ikora seems to regard Eris’ role among the Hidden as rather new:

Ikora: As I am learning. I will make the others listen.

Ikora: Cherish what remains, but know that you have done enough. Your time in the shadows… I can’t fathom—
Eris: My role among the Hidden is an honor.

While with the first Crota fireteam, Eris makes no mention of being part of the Hidden. Much like Eriana-3, her goal seems to be revenge:

Eris: This isn’t about faith.
Eriana-3: It’s about vengeance.

And again:

“We tried once to hunt him, gave up all we were to challenge the ones that bow in his name, hoping to deny him his power. One by one, we failed. But I’ve kept watch, seeking vengeance for all I’ve lost.


Your points about the Black Garden make sense. My theory still stands without that part though. After all, Eris’s vengeance isn’t the real motive here. Remember, Savathun is the Hive god of trickery. Heck, she convinced Crota to let Vex into his father’s throne world. Eris could easily believe she’s working for vengeance, but is unintentionally working for Savathun. Basically we can’t use Eris’s words in this theory, only her actions.

Eris sought vengeance for those she lost.

6 of you went down into the pit. You sought vengeance for those I lost it. But in his final breath, Crota sent a message to the night. And now, the night has answered.

I mean, we can’t know that for certain. Ikora obviously trusts Eris and her reasoning; is Ikora being manipulated, too? The Vanguard as a whole let her oversee operations in TTK & TDB, are Zavala and Cayde being manipulated? The Speaker?

Eris’ actions point towards vengeance, just as her actions do. Oryx, Savathun, and Xivu Arath never kill each other in their throne worlds, because then they would be permakilled. However, Eris leads us towards Crota’s throne world, killing him and angering Oryx. With the logic that anyone could be misguidedly working for Savathun, the Guardians could be manipulated- we’re killing Hive, aren’t we?

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I mean… yes? She lost the other members of her fireteam: Sai, Omar, Vell, Eriana-3, even Toland isn’t exactly alive anymore. That’s not even going into the fact that she probably lost friends at Mare Imbrium. I don’t think I understand your point.

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To clarify:

In your post above, you said her motive was revenge. I was just clarifying that. Unless I misunderstood your post.

Also, Eris has a chat with Ikora about her being a Hidden:

Eris: My role among the Hidden is an honor

You make a good point about the throne world. I hadn’t found an explanation for that yet.

Ahh, it’s been so long since I’ve had a good Destiny lore debate. Loving this.

At the end of TTK, Eros says something that ends in “my queen” so maybe she was talking about/to Savathun.

As for the black garden, I think it was one of Savathuns war moons

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Oh, alright- I thought you were disagreeing but also saying she went into the Hellmouth for revenge. Apologies for the confusion, lol.

She’s definitely a Hidden in TDB, but TDB takes place after Eris arrives back at the Tower. Ghost Fragment: Hive 3, as well as Eris’ Crota’s Bane card, specify that she is a member of the Hidden. However, these cards were added in TDB, and both are written with post-Hellmouth Eris in mind. From GF: Hive 3:

Ikora: You saved us all. Your sacrifice—
Cherish what remains, but know that you have done enough. Your time in the shadows… I can’t fathom—

And from Crota’s Bane:

Robbed of her Ghost, Eris remained lost among the darkest shadows of the Hellmouth for countless cycles. Despite all odds she endured, using the very dark she battled to emerge a changed warrior—driven, some would say obsessed.

She is part of the Hidden, but there’s no confirmation she was part of the Hidden pre-TDB.

It’s always fun. I don’t know if you agree with the whole Reddit post, but there are some good rebukes re: Savathun being Crota’s mother in there, mostly from @GhostDante:

There is a big problem with this: if Savathun was Crota’s (and the Deathsinger twins’) mother, she would have been named by Oryx. He only says he found a mother to make spawn with. If Savathûn was that mother, she would have been named, just as she had been named each time Oryx mentioned her.

This is coming from the fact that the mother of Oryx’s children is mentioned in the Books of Sorrow:

Once I had made war on Savathûn, and crippled her tribute so that she could never challenge me, and once I had tricked Xivu Arath, and poisoned her tribute so that she could never again try to take my tablets, and once I had arranged my own lineages so that I would be greatest among the Hive and secure on my throne — then I found a mother to make spawn.

The general consensus on this line is that she is talking to Mara Sov. this card talks about a Hunter without a Ghost asking for aid from Mara to take down Oryx


Last time I checked, butchering ones own soldiers isn’t good…

Not by our standards, no. But there’s a significant cultural difference between us and the Hive. The three siblings show their love by killing one another (thus challenging each other to grow stronger, which is also something they see as endearment). Oryx even says he will have children “to love and to kill”.

Killing is also how the Hive cull their own forces and “sharpen” their “swords” - both their literal swords and their philosophy.

The Hive have shown interest in corrupting Guardians, as well. For example, Rezyl Azzir.

However, Savathun may not be directly involved here. As @erin has pointed out, Eris and Eriana’s motivations are personal, and come from a desire to avenge their comrades. We can, however, consider them (and the rest of the Crota’s Bane fireteam) as being manipulated by Toland.

Toland led them to their deaths, allowed them to believe he might help kill Crota, and abandoned them to willingly die at the hands of Ir Yut, all for his own gain. He was obsessed with the philosophy of the Hive. But his lies were all based on the fact that Eris and Eriana already wanted to kill Crota. It was their idea, and he was able to use it to his advantage.

As for Savathun, we know a little about her recent activity from the quests following Malok. And, Dreadfang’s item description reads: “Kingly brother, I thank thee for the gift of thy failure. The sword logic demands a pinnacle.”

Savathun may very well be the one taking control of the Taken - there’s a considerable amount of suggestion in Destiny 2 (which is being discussed in another topic).

It’s possible she is next on Eris’s list. But it’s also possible that Eris is playing right into her hands. Whether she would be doing so willingly is up for debate. However, it’s generally agreed that, like @purplechimera said, she cooperated with Mara Sov to take down Oryx. So there’s already at least one queen in her life. :slight_smile:


Found something relevant while playing D2 today. There’s an adventure on Io (The name escapes me, it’s about Taken) where you fight a Taken wizard called the Eye of Savathun. After killing it, Ikora says “I fear something may have taken Oryx’s crown.”

So we know Savathun now controls the Taken, at least somewhat. But this also provides possible evidence for Savathun betraying Oryx, an explanation for his throne world permadeath.

It’s not perfect proof at all, but it’s something. Thought I’d throw it out here.


Oh, definitely! Out of the first Crota fireteam, I’m surprised Eris is the one usually singled out for being Savathun’s target- Toland was far more transfixed on the Hive, to the point where he used Eriana-3’s team as what amounts to bait in order to find Ir Yut:

I was a fool to lead us here. I was blinded by the loss of so much, by your light extinguished. I put my trust, and the light of four others, in a madman, and I bear witness to their fall into darkness and death. Toland’s song was nothing but screams, and we go now to sing with them. We will not return.

Given that Toland was hanging around in the Overworld as recently as TTK, it’s not impossible that he knows what’s happening with the Taken and who has taken the crown. He was warning us of the vacancy back in 2015, after all:

All right. Enough. Enough. A vacancy has opened, hasn’t it?
How interesting. How very interesting.

If any Guardian (or once-Guardian) is working with Savathun, it would probably be Toland. But then again, he presumably didn’t swoop in and take the throne, and he was attempting to help us in TTK:

Are you following this? Would it help if I etched a few notes on the margins? I didn’t shuck my mortal form and smuggle this nightmare arcana back to the waking world for the benefit of that masked hypocrite’s drooling loyal orthodox.

Personally I don’t see Toland working with Savathun. It’s possible, but I don’t think he would be in favor of another Taken King (or Queen, I guess) rising to power.

Yeah, I don’t really think he’s aiding her- at least originally, he seems like he was motivated by his obsession/curiosity with the Hive, and that manifested as getting four people, along with himself, killed. But he is still in the Overworld, meaning he is presumably nearby while probably-Savathun is rising to power. I just mention him because if Eris is suspect, then I think the literal-ascended, Hive version of Osiris should be too, lol.

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