It certainly has wings, but that could also be a callback to Sunsinger. Ghaul is moments before respawning, correct?
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A little late to the party but, that is Ghaul using Radiance. There is no reference that says when guardians use Radiance it always appears the same. Not to mention the manner in which Ghaul obtained the Light was dramatically different having seemingly infused it into himself rather than it be gifted to him. When Ghaul says, '“Yes, you see me”, it’s most likely him seeing the Traveler awaken and he takes that to mean that he was gained its favor.
I don’t think this in any way indicates that Oryx is alive. The appearance of the wings is of no consequence. Ghaul was attempting to revive himself with the stolen Light upon his defeat and in his new form thought he had earned the Travelers favor.
All that and on top of it, there is no way that Oryx was inside of Ghaul as Oryx was killed years before the events of the Red War and as stated before, there is no mention to the Red Legion encountering Oryx or the Hive.
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All good theories. Personally I think its slightly metaphorical of the relation between the light and dark and how theyre simply two sides of the same coin.
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this theory has nothing to do with Oryx meeting the Red Legion. Besides the Grimoire cards suggest that the Kabal had faced Oryx before. Anyways, this is about Oryx coming to light because of our fault. we used the Ravenous heart in the Touch of Malice thus enabeling Oryx to live through our actions eventuelly coming to be reborn, maybe through an ambitious light stealer that we also killed. anyway, I don’t need to persuade anyone, it’s what I believe will turn out later on in the story as Oryx mastering not only the deep but the sky as well.
"Oryx died in his throne world, which means that he died a “real” death and is unable to be resurrected. From XVII:
From this day forward, Auryx, you and your sisters will each survive death — so long as you aren’t killed in your own throne.
This is why Savathûn and Xivu Arath were able to be summoned during Oryx’s war with the Ecumene- they were not killed in their thrones. Having access to the Deep wasn’t what brought the sisters back, it’s that Oryx killed them in his throne and not their own."
You know what I find interesting about this? Savathun has been killed multiple times. As has Oryx when he was Auryx. All outside of their respective throne worlds and were able to be revived without outside help. But when Oryx kills them in HIS throne world it says,
“And strangle me,” says Savathûn, holding a blade behind her back. “Use that killing logic, the cunning you prove by killing something as smart as me.”
But King Auryx turned with the speed and might of Xivu Arath, and beheaded Savathûn before she could move. King Auryx was the First Navigator, with the map of death.
These were true deaths, for they happened in the sword world."
Card XXVI
Why call them true deaths? Or is the sword world simply different from the that of the thrones? Idk it feels like an oversight.
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While thats a theory thats technically possible I sincerely doubt, no, I know they wont create an entire plotline from one weapon’s description. Unfortunately bungo isnt that attentive. Hence why we have have to catalog their lore for them.
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But again that isn’t possible. That would mean that Ghaul came into possession of ToM which is highly unlikely and I doubt he even knew of its creation. Oryx is not TECHNICALLY dead since his essence is alive in the weapon but his soul was slain in his throne world therefore there’s no way for guardians to revive him or for him to revive himself. Their soul would need to be alive someplace for a resurrection to be possible. Every instance of a Hive resurrection is possible because their soul was hidden away.
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I dont really think it matters if it’s possible. It’s not going to happen. This is bungo we’re talking about. that’s too complex of a story to tell.
That’s actually not a complex story to tell. Guardians killing the big bad only for the big bad to find some ridiculous way to revive himself and be the big bad again is a pretty common trope and incredibly simple. The point of the BoS is not only for the backstory of the Hive but to also show that Oryx and Crota aren’t the only beings out there capable of slaying the Light. Oryx had sisters and that is foreshadowing something more complex. At the end of the BoS Savathun even says that they must separate so that they can grow different implying that the defeat of Oryx is in no way a defeat for the Hive. It being possible is one of the most important aspects of writing a story and creating a consistent plot.
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I mean, I’m simply stating my counter point to the theory that Oryx lives or is using Light. If that is arguing or splitting hairs to you then so be it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with hearing different opinions and perspectives. But whatever dude, I digress.
Where? Phobos, as far as we know, is the first instance of Cabal coming into contact with the Taken power. Pre-TTK, the Dreadnaught was simply being referred to as a “threat”:
There’s a notification from three days ago. A “Primus Ta’aun” suspended all Phobos mining operations and recon pending investigation of a trans-Jovian threat.
Besides, why would the Skyburners suffer such a disastrous defeat if they had faced Oryx before? If they had experience fighting Taken, it’s unlikely that the situation at Phobos would get bad enough that the Cabal were forced to send out their first known distress signal.
Why would Oryx ‘come to the Light’? The Hive are creatures of the Deep, and are by proxy enemies of the Sky. His mission for centuries, along with his sisters’, is the consuming of the Sky and the Traveler. Why would his worm allow him to ‘turn’ to the Light; furthermore, how would he achieve it? The Traveler would not gift him with the Light. Besides, the whole ‘moral’ of Destiny 2 is that the Light cannot be taken like the power of the Deep is. The Deep and the Sky are opposites, and that includes in how power is transferred.
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The term ‘sword world’ comes up more than I thought it did:
When the Vex came into the sword world, they were inevitably annihilated, but when the Hive went into the Vex world, they lost too much of their power to win.
In the cold abyss of the sword world, King Aurash walked under a cloak of green fire.
Given that Oryx is walking not in his throne world but in the ‘sword world,’ it seems like the term is more similar to the “Overworld” that Toland talks about:
Now I fly between green-black suns in the labyrinth beyond Crota’s god-star. This is the Overworld, the Sea of Screams, where the throne-universes of the great Hive fester in eternal majesty. I move among them. I map the shapes and connections of this world.
If there are ‘connections’ between throne worlds, then maybe there is the material world, wherein deaths are both impermanent and do not require acts of cunning, war, etc. to summon back Ascendent Hive. Then there is the Overworld, or the sword world, where death is impermanent but requires summoning to recover from it. And then there are the throne worlds, in which the Hive killed in their throne is killed permanently; Savathun dying in Oryx’s throne counts as a ‘sword world’ death, but not a ‘throne world’ death.
It’s all guesswork, but given that the term is used multiple times there’s presumably some intention there.
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I just want to point out that the cabal are a large intergalactic empire that is almost entirely militaristic in nature. Meaning that there is definitely going to be a type of operational security and limitation to the spread and distribution of intelligence and information. The cabal military was so large in fact that the sky burners were surprised to have gotten a response form the emperor (dominus) when they sent the distress signal. And that response they got was to blow up Oryx’s dreadnought. And as for the dreadnought be refuted to a trans Jovian threat and not as Oryx’s dreadnought might be because we as guardians had already killed most if not all of the upper leadership in the system. So its entirely possible that some unit’s of the cabal have fought the taken before and knew of the danger the dreadnought posses and thus gave the order to destroy it at all cost and just not the sky burners, or dust giant’s had never faced a threat of this magnitude. For all we know the sky burners and dust giant’s are just a engineering unit and its escort and might not even fit a role in the cabal military where they would be even close to the front lines. Do we even know why the cabal were here in our system to beginning with? As far as I remember they never left mars other then the dreadnought in destiny vanilla.
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The Dust Giants have a known role within the Cabal structure. From the Dust Giants card:
Highly trained and heavily conditioned, Dust Giant soldiers seem to be recruited from veteran Sand Eater infantry. The Cabal order of battle positions them as a mobile reserve and shock force, rolled in to blunt major Vex offensives and reinforce crumbling lines.
Additionally, the Skyburners were manning “the largest known Cabal orbital defense station in-system.” The Skyburner’s Primus, Ta’aun, was also named as being extremely powerful:
You are Ta’aun. Primus of the Skyburners. Veteran of star-shaking campaigns. Bond brother to Tlu’urn and Mau’ual: your beloved comrades. Your faithful friends. For a while you were the mightiest Cabal soldier in the system.
These fleets were definitely a core part of the Cabal, at least their first campaign in Sol.
Where is it said that the Cabal were surprised to receive a response? The message was meant to be sent some time before Outbound Signal:
Ghost: Signal’s down. It was encrypted, but some of the headers are legible. This was a detailed distress signal intended for…the head of the Cabal Empire.
And they had a response by the time of the Shield Brothers strike:
The Vanguard intercepted a signal, a message from the Cabal from way outside the solar system. A direct order to crash the ship, use it as a beachhead, and take out the King.
What Cabal could have known? The Sand Eaters and Dust Giants have been stuck on Mars for years, and there’s no indication that the Skyburners, Blind Legion, or Siege Dancers have encountered Taken. Additionally, the Cabal don’t seem to be the type of organization that would hide valuable intel from their elite taskforce within the system.
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I just want to point out that Oryx was able to bring his systers back after killing them in the ascended realm by “worshipping” their core concepts, wich is war and deception.
As far as I can tell, Oryx is not yet alive, but Savathun is making her way to worship him by taking new species, and I believe that the questline in wich the Taken are taking the Vex is the way to prepare the territory for Oryx’s summoning.
Plus I really believe that when we defeat Oryx on Destiny 1 he didn’t die, he took himself and became the process of achieveing his final perfect form.
Oryx was able to resurrect his sisters because they died in his throne, not their own. From XXVI:
Beneath a green fire sky, in the throne-world of King Auryx, our lords embrace.
If Savathûn, for example, had died in her throne realm- the same way Oryx did in his at the end of King’s Fall- she would not have been able to be resurrected. Oryx is permanently dead because of where he died: the Dreadnaught, his throne. Oryx says this himself in L:
If my echoes are killed, and I am killed in the material world, then I will be driven back to my throne the Dreadnaught. If my Court and my throne can be beaten, if I am confronted in my throne, if I am defeated there, then I will die. My work will end.
Even if Oryx was able to be resurrected, it wouldn’t be through Taking. The resurrections come from the sisters’ natures, stated when they first made the pact in IX:
You must obey your nature forever. In your immortality, Aurash, you may never cease to explore and inquire, for the sake of your children. In your immortality, Xi Ro, you may never cease to test your strength. In your immortality, Sathona, you may never abandon cunning.
These are the same natures Oryx used to bring his sisters back with in XXIX:
At the end of those hundred years he killed the Ecumene Council on the Fractal Wreath, and from their blood rose Xivu Arath, saying, “I am war, and you have conjured me back with war.”
From their ashes rose cunning Savathûn, saying, “I am trickery, and you have conjured me back with trickery.”
Oryx himself doesn’t have a “perfect final form”- the Darkness does, or so the Hive believe. The Sword Logic is the final form, as the Worms say in XIX:
When they could have helped whittle the universe towards its final, perfect form!
And in XVVII:
They will gain hope of ascendance and by their ruthlessness they will assist the universe in arriving at its perfect shape.
Oryx had plans, if he was killed, to ensure the continuation of the Sword Logic:
They will become me and I will become them, each of us defeating the other, correcting the other, alloying ourselves into one omnipotent philosophy. Thus I will live forever.
Oryx did not want to die- he wanted to be “isomorphic to conquest, to triumph, to killing and death”- but he acknowledged that, if someone was stronger than him, that he had to die to let the Sword Logic continue.
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First I want to apologize, I can only put 2 links in a post as a new user, so I will not be able to link the cards that I’m going to reference.
and still, from the same card
and from XXVII:
Never before any of them refered itself as alone as did Auryx in this moment.
It is true that card XVIII tells this:
but remeber that “you” is the same word for both singular and plural, and since this happens before each of them creates their court and their respective throne, the throne that is being referenced here is the “sword realm”, and it is created by the might of the sword logic itself, and not by each individual power. Still not one nor the other theory is in fact flawless, so I choose to believe in this one.
This is true, however I do believe that in the moment that Auryx understood the Sword Logic, killed his sisters and took the power of Akka he changed his nature, and that is reflected by the change both in name and title. While Auryx has took the King morph, and the nature of the explorer and inquirer, at that exact moment he took the nature of the Taken.
He is Taken King not because he rules over the Taken, but because he took his power, and that is the proof that he understood fully the sword logic.
So no, the sword logic is not the final form, but the tool trough wich the hive brings the final form upon the universe. From XLVII:
But the one that sets out to understand the one true law and to perform worship of that law will by that decision gain control over their future. They will gain hope of ascendance and by their ruthlessness they will assist the universe in arriving at its perfect shape.
The first sentence describes that trough the use and worship of the sword logic one can transcend causal closure. From XVI:
You are no longer bound by causal closure. Your will defeats law. Kill a hundred of your children with a long blade, Auryx, and observe the change in the blade. Observe how the universe shrinks from you in terror.
The second sentence outlines the benefits of becoming paracausal, that for the hive is reaching an ascended state, and bring the universe towards it’s final perfect shape.
From XXVIII:
That is the final shape: Darkness itself. Not the Hive, not the Taken, but the Darkness. However, as seen in XLVIII when Oryx makes his Taken he changes their shape into one closer to perfection, and perfection to him is the final shape
When I make my Taken I make them closer to perfect, I heal their wounds and enhance their strengths. This is inherently good.
Now, regarding to Oryx being dead himself there is 2 passages that support my theory that he is, in fact, capable to have escaped death inside his throne room. One is from XXXVIII:
This is a technique that Oryx daughters are experimenting trough millenia. And the fact that Oryx, in the final cutscene, does not die, but gathers power from his sword into a sphere, and rams that sphere into himself while vanishing (and laughing, wich is a strange way to portrait powers that cease to exist in the media) leads me to believe that he, at that point sent himself somewhere else, and this technique that his daughters started to experiment so long ago might be just what he used.
Otherwise he would have killed himself, but that goes against the Sword Logic he so much holds dear, and the conclusion he reaches on XLVII:
Aiat: the only right is existence, the only wrong is nonexistence.
and from L:
So for me to believe that he chose nonexistence, that he chose to be wormfood, that he went back on his word of going on forever, that he did not prepared a second path and killed himself… it just doesn’t make any sense.
For the final blow on Oryx was not ours, but his own. We bested him, but we did not killed him.
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I’m sure Erin will have a much more detailed response for you but I’d like to point out that Oryx using the power to take on himself was not the last we saw of oryx. WE defeated him later in his own world. I believe you’re referring to the campaign but I think you’re leaving the raid out of your assessment.
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