First off I want to thank all of you for your HUGE response to this topic. It’s pretty cool when we get to see the community come together like this to theorize. I’m changing the title of this post however. I’ll provide a TLDR and the original post content below. I’m doing this for a couple reasons, one being my original theory I now find uninformed and misleading. The second is that I want this post to become a reference point for others who have apparently stumbled across the same question. That being said, this is why Oryx is super dead.
TLDR:
I’m going to list the most common theories that have popped up on this thread and the reasons they’ve been debunked.
The Touch of Malice could revive Oryx
Originally I incorrectly assumed that ToM acted like a cage for Oryx’s essence thus opening the door for him to resurrected should we please his essence. While it does in fact house his essence it is only just that. A piece of his worm (one of the pieces required to craft the weapon) is not enough to revive him. So while its a nice physical analogy on the Sword Logic for him to leave behind, it is not an immortality device.
Oryx could be summoned like his sisters
This theory comes from a moment in the Books of Sorrow where Oryx slays his sisters to steal their power and then later revives them. It’s common spinfoil ammo to say that because the Books of Sorrow call them “true deaths” death means nothing at all and Oryx is free to be summoned from beyond the grave. This is also incorrect. While it does call them “true deaths” in the “sword world,” both terms commonly associated with permanent deaths in throne worlds, we find that on closer inspection Bungie obviously just got sloppy with their wording by saying “true deaths” and “Sword World”. We killed Oryx in HIS Throne World though. I know I sound like Im beating a dead horse but it took awhile to get this through my head. Oryx kills Savathun and Xivu-Arath in HIS own world. Giving them the opportunity to be revived. All the proof you should need is in the first line of the card below.
Once you nail down the Books of Sorrow controversy in your mind and do away with the possibility that he could survive a death in his own throne world the other theories crumble. If you have more questions the folks here at Ishtar have really done a good job of diving deep into this subject and pulling out all the possible proof that he’s dead. Hope you enjoyed. Study on, Guardian.
Original Post Content
Going back through the Books of Sorrow (as one does) I noticed something I hadn’t before. I had been told before reading the books of sorrow that Oryx had murdered his siblings within HIS (Edit: not his ascendant realm I misunderstood because it says “True Deaths”. Explanation below.) ascendant realm. Going back now I realize that he killed each of them in their own. We all know how this turns out though. Oryx goes on a war campaign and eventually sees fit to resurrect his lovely sisters. Now here’s the thing. The way he resurrected them was by completing whatever act best embodied that sister’s nature. I.e. trickery for Savathun. My issue begins in Destiny 1. We take Oryx’s essence, or at least a piece of it, and put it into a gun of all things. A gun that embodies Oryx’s essence. We already know the way you bring back a hive is by manifesting their essence. Now you can probably already see the points I’m about to make.
By using this weapon we bring him closer to life
Because death in the sword realm apparently means nothing now his sisters, once they gain understanding, could literally bring him back from the dead at any given point.
Please tell me if theres something I’m missing because to me it looks like the Hive are completely and totally immortal.
I agree with you but I believe there’s a BoS card somewhere that says something about him helping his killer I’m sure he’s still alive but I don’t the exact wording of it. What I mean is that he won’t be resurrected because he already is in the Touch of Malice.
Ah yes I know what you’re referring to. While I believe that Oryx himself is at peace with his place, I do not believe his sisters are. My point in bringing up ToM is that there is a small chance we could bring him back ourselves. However I think the bigger possibility is that his sisters will be fighting a losing war and call upon him again. If we remember back to the sisters’ resurrection, location of the soul apart from the body is not essential in their revival. They need only summon. It becomes clearer for me when I think of ToM not as a cage but as a vessel.
I’m not sure about that. Savathun is all about moving in the shadows playing a gmae almost as if this is all one big chess board. She obviously has control of the taken(somehow>.>) she might just leave him as he is.
Actually Savathun doesn’t have complete control. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBEcyu_T5k8 What she does have is a bit of associative reverence due to her relation to Oryx. The only reason Oryx knew how to control them was because of murdering Ahka. I expect if Savathun is to gain control/understanding she must follow her own path. But currently she only FULLY controls the hive.
Actually Oryx did kill his sisters in his own throne world, not theirs. At the beginning of the card which describes him killing Savathun and Xivu Arath before he slew Akka, XXVI: star by star by star, it says this:
“Beneath a green-fire sky, in the throne-world of King Auryx, our lords embrace.” (Italics added)
In XXV, This Love is War, Xivu Arath says:
“Once, I permitted Oryx to kill me so that he could gain the sword logic and overcome Akka, our god. This left me trapped deep in my throne.”
This confirms that Xivu Arath was not killed in her own throne world. Hence when Oryx (or Auryx at that point) killed her it wasn’t a permanent death.
XXVI is told from the perspective of the Hive gathered in Aury’s throne world. It’s possible that what they call “true deaths” are not the same as permanent deaths. I’m not sure why “true deaths” would have a different meaning to “permanent deaths”. Nevertheless, there are other parts of the Books of Sorrow that make it clear that powerful Hive such as Oryx and his sisters can only be permanently killed if they are killed in their own throne worlds.
In XVII, The Weakness Verse, it says:
"Your body is gone, but you have endured. Safe in the cyst universe created by your own might - your throne world.
“From this day forward, Auryx, you and your sisters will each survive death - so long as you aren’t killed in your own throne.”
In L, Wormfood, Oryx says:
"I have died many times but these deaths were only temporary.
“If my echoes are killed, and I am killed in the material world, then I will be driven back to my throne the Dreadnaught. If my Court and my throne can be beaten, if I am confronted in my throne, if I am defeated there, then I will die. My work will end.”
Since Oryx killed Savathun and Xivu Arath in his throne world, not theirs, they were not permanent deaths. Instead they were trapped in their own throne worlds, as Xivu Arath describes. That’s why they could be resurrected by Oryx carrying out acts that described their natures.
Hm… looks like either Bungie needs some clarification on their terms or they accidentally introduced some inconsistency. Thanks for the detailed responses
You know, I thought that maybe ToM could be a way for Oryx to get out of the bad bargain with the Worms. He acknowledges that it’s ultimately a losing proposition in the Books, a choice made in a moment of desperation and anger. The ToM is a Worm-free vessel for him to exist as, held in the hands of whatever was strong enough to really kill him, which is no small feat.
Also, it could be a chance for him to get vengeance on Taox, which the Worms have pulled him away from for sure. If it even matters to the siblings anymore.
Something I wanted to point out, Oryx’s nature is to explore and travel, not necessarily something that a gun achieves. Sava was revived by tricking a civilization, and Xir-however was revived by genociding that civilization. So unless the Touch of Malice discovers another civilization, I don’t think we’re in trouble. Plus, it’s not like Oryx was the only guy duping people and doing genocide, alien races love genocide. The Cabal genocide for fun and they never resurrected Savathun, so I think there needs to be some degree of intent or connection in order for it to work
Yes, especially because when Oryx resurrected his siblings he did it because he wanted them back. We however (unless there’s a mad and traitorous guardian) do not want him back.
I’m just spit balling here but when we first kill oryx in our world, his sword willbreaker still remains. At the cut scene you see Eris grab the crystal from it. I believe this is his sword logic crystal that he used to help kill Akka and get his power to take. Eris constantly refers to her “Queen”. No that we see more of savathuns presence in D2. Do you all think that Eris’s “Queen” is Savathun? I think that Oryx is actual dead for now but if Savathun learns to use the power of the deep from the tablets of ruin (do we know if those ave turned up anywhere or maybe Eris grabbed them too) she can bring back her big brother as he did with her and her sister? no one could access the deep except for oryx because he had the tablets, but if someone else was to get them and learn how to have the power to take then he could come back as he did to his sisters by completing acts that represent him. Just the rambling of a mad hunter here.
Eris is probably referring to Mara Sov, the Queen of the Reef. Eris is documented as having worked with the Queen back in HOW:
"You don’t have one."
The Hunter came to a halt in front of the throne, raised her covered face to meet the Prince’s gaze.
“No,” she agreed. “My next death will be my last.”
There’s no real evidence of Eris conspiring with Savathûn, especially since the reason she leaves the Tower in AOT is to find knowledge that will “truly to put an end to [the Hive’s] hate.”
Given that there are members of the Red Legion that have been Taken, someone (probably Savathûn) has the power to Take. However, the location of the Tablets themselves hasn’t been mentioned in D2. As far as we know, they’re still on the Dreadnaught, in Golgoroth’s cellar.
Oryx died in his throne world, which means that he died a “real” death and is unable to be resurrected. From XVII:
From this day forward, Auryx, you and your sisters will each survive death — so long as you aren’t killed in your own throne.
This is why Savathûn and Xivu Arath were able to be summoned during Oryx’s war with the Ecumene- they were not killed in their thrones. Having access to the Deep wasn’t what brought the sisters back, it’s that Oryx killed them in his throne and not their own.
Out of curiosity how do you know that the red legion were taken? All the cabal taken look and act in the same manner as the rest. And if the red legion have been taken couldn’t it have happened in some conflict long or shortly before oryx and his dreadnought came to Sol?
The final boss of the Lake of Shadows strike is Grask, the Consumed, a taken Red Legion phalanx.
There’s no evidence of the Red Legion coming into contact with Oryx. The Legion was sent to Earth following TTK, when the Skyburners sent out a distress signal to the Cabal empire. By the time they arrived, Oryx was long dead. If the Cabal’d had any contact with the Taken beforehand, then they would have been much better prepared for the campaign against Oryx, and the events at Phobos would have likely never occurred.
Hi, new to IC but wanted to share a pic of the campaign, that in my eyes proves Oryx is still around.
MyNameisByf, discounted it by saying “Dude it was only there for a few seconds…”
I can’t believe how you can just ignore such a massive clue. I mean its not that this wasn’t placed there on purpose by bungie, no. It’s just a random oryx shaped body before Ghauls respawns as a figure of light and says “Yes, you see me”
