The books of sorrow

Hello guardians,
I apologize for my absence lately, I work in irrigation, and business is great right now haha.

I would like to create a general discussion on everybody’s thoughts over anything and everything to do with the books of sorrow. It is my personal favorite addition to ever hit the lore of Destiny. Particularly anything to do with the “worms” and ahamkara personally interest me. I believe they are one in the same, possibly not all ahamkara are “worm gods” but all of the “worm gods” are ahamkara in my mind. Maybe the worm gods are an elite form of the ahamkara species? These are just fun things to think about. If you have any lore agreeing or disagreeing with this I would love to see it. I would also love to talk about the hive in general, how they started on fundament and where they are now. How much do they hive have left to do with story of destiny? To me, almost endless. We have only killed a god to 1/3 of the hive. Let’s not forget about oryx’s sister, that are possibly wielding unimaginable power.


I kind of like the theory that proto- or pre-Hive might not have been native to the fundament but possibly a long ago marooned species that may have crashed there, perhaps against a moon or other astronomical body and maybe the tribes, like the Osmium Court dwell on scattered or mangled parts of their “ship” or “ships” if they were once a spacefaring race…

In the Books of Sorrow somewhere, not sure, going to check, it states that Aurash learns that the Proto-Hive were indeed not native to the Fundament, but were travelers that came there because something happened, once again, not sure, off to check.

Let’s compare and contrast the Worm Gods and the Ahamkara. For starters, to get the silliness out of me, they look the same. Anyway, both promise great power and knowledge, all with a price. The Ahamkara ‘curse’ the asker that they will have to repay. The Worm Gods grant power, and we know what happened with the Hive.

Is there some kind of God(s) to the Ahamkara, or leader(s)?

1 Like

Yeah I have that thought too about the Ahamkara(sp) and the Worms too, where if we think of D&D 80’s era dragons were classified as: Hatchling, Young Dragons, Dragons, Wyrms and Great Wyrms. (Wyrms= Worms.) Yes this is a stretch but being that Destiny borrows from classic High Fantasy for example Awoken= Elves, Titans= Warriors, Warlocks= Wizards/ Mages and Hunters= Rogues; then if the Worms were actually (Dragons) then we can think that the Ahamkara might be the Great Worms of Wormkind…

And when you think about the Great Hunt and Quria’s strong resistance to “introduce Worm larvae into its mind fluid,” along with a “Price to great to ask…” I just think the Worms are decidedly self-interested, self-centered and chaos personified.

1 Like

Just a thought, since Oryx killed Savathun and Xivu Arath and took their power, does that mean we finished off them (technically) as well?

Some useful Reddit links to help your cause, @ComoLore,

1 Like

No. Oryx called them back to life and they still live. Besides, the event happened billions of years ago, so it doesn’t count, if at all.

1 Like

Also I think if they weren’t killed in/on their individual “throneworld” they aren’t truly dead…so did we off Oryx “truly/completely” on his/her Dreadnaught/Throneworld?

'Cause early in the history of those big 3, they sort of seemed to relish killing each other just to speed boost themselves. Or were they doing the Hive version of being Thanatonauts?

They weren’t killed in their own thrones. To the gathered Hive, which is the point of view the card XXVI (star by star by star) is from, it is a true death, because anything that dies in the Ascendant plane has perma-died; except we know that in card XVII (The Weakness Verse) the Worm Gods said that Auryx and his sisters will survive death so long as they aren’t killed in their own personal throne.

So, from the lesser Hive, death is permanent in the Ascendant plane; to Ascendants, death even there is temporary unless they are killed in their own personal throne. Thanks to Ir Anuk and Ir Halak’s research that can be mitigated with an Oversoul, which kills anything that threatens it once its “maker” retreats to it upon “death”; however, I’m assuming that if it is destroyed, the Ascendant has no more soul-jar to retreat to.

So, while the Dreadnaught is “Oryx’s” throneworld it isn’t an Oversoul; the Touch of Malice can be considered such a one, his final failsafe. I believe we can infer Oryx was inspired to make the Touch after he reflected how he recalled his sisters to life during the Ecumene war – if someone kills him, they will be stronger than him; but they will need a weapon, and in seeking a way to kill him, his future killer will come to read the Books of Sorrow and build the Touch.

Upon Oryx’s death in his Ascendant realm his soul will retreat to that prepared, but modified soul-jar. Once inside Oryx will aid and teach his killer until they are so interconnected that it would be impossible to determine who was who, even if Oryx no longer existed physically. This is the kind of immortality he envisions for himself – he’s an explorer, a scientist in a way, curiousity is his nature. He wouldn’t seek revenge (Crota being an exception) because it is meaningless to the science of the Sword-Logic; no, he would equip his killer once he has been killed, as is right for the victor.


what I like the most about the books of sorrow is how the vex are involved in them.

I’m thinking a lot about the Traveler recently. Ir Anuk & Ir Halak used the term " Thanatosphere" for the oversoul…I’d say in some way the Traveler is our thanatosphere…given what the word actually means. not saying there’s a connection, I just find it really interesting.


The Worm and Ahamkara are of the same species. Proof Here.

1 Like

Sword logic wise, oryx and his sisters have been killing eachother for thousands of years, we “killed” oryx so technically if we go off of the sword logic, we actually killed a very powerful being.

And so with that logic (and the Sword logic) We are the ruler of the hive. I read in a card something where a guardian (you) were supposed to take oryx’s place after you killed him, as sword logic goes.

Found this in the “Darkness” grimoire card

The plate of stone we live on, our Osmium Court, is one fragment of a rocky planet that crashed into the Fundament and broke apart

Something cool in the Ghost fragment "darkness 3"
Kinda seems like the 3 sisters, does it not?
Imagine three great nations under three great queens. The first queen writes a great book of law and her rule is just. The second queen builds a high tower and her people climb it to see the stars. The third queen raises an army and conquers everything.

That was probably one or more of Toland’s messages:

You’re a god yourself, now. You’ve consecrated yourself. Emulate me. Use your power to learn.

You fools! You disastrous, bumbling squanderers! It’s not right! Who now shall be First Navigator, Lord of Shapes, harrowed god, Taken King? Not you! You might have been Kings and Queens of the Deep! But you have toppled Oryx and you have not replaced him!

Although, Toland is pretty Hive-obsessed, so he’s likely operating under the assumption that the Sword Logic must continue, i.e. we should have taken the mantle. There’s no telling what would have happened if someone else (like Savathun) didn’t step in; the Taken & Hive may have ceased to be a threat, the next-highest tither could have taken the mantle, etc.

As for GF: Darkness 3, it was also written by Toland, hence the similarities in writing style and general content. With regards to the card being about the Osmium Sisters, though, they all fit the description of the last queen more than the other two. Instead, the third queen was probably an analogy for the Sword Logic as a whole:

This is the shape of victory: to rule the universe so absolutely that nothing will ever exist except by your consent. This is the queen at the end of time, whose sovereignty is eternal because no other sovereign can defeat it.


But I do suppose since we abondoned the Hive after that Savathun and Xivu Arath could have taken over Oryx’s armies…

i always thought the worms and ahemkara may be kinda like mice and rats, like cousins, but not exactly the same, but i like your theory from the original post

1 Like

In card ‘V : Needle and Worm’ It mentions how sathona took her dead fathers familiar, which was a white dead ‘worm’. She says in the cars “It’s dead, but it still speaks to me. It says: Listen closely, oh vengeance mine…” That is very much like how ahamkara talk and I wanted to bring this up because it could be part of why the hive gods are so powerful. It also says how the worm is segmented, like how earthworms are. Also another tidbit on what worms looked like (either ahamkara worms or worm god worms)