Why didn't Oryx Take Guardians?


#1

Given that Quria came up in conversation recently, I realized that Oryx never once Took a Guardian, and wondered why.

The first answer that occurred to me was that Guardians’ paracausality protected them much like in the Vault of Glass, but Oryx has been able to Take paracausal brings before - Quria, incidentally a Vex, and Tai Emperor Raven.

Oryx Took selectively, leaving things that wouldn’t be useful (shanks, dregs, harpies, legionaries and colossi of the rank and file) out of the equation. Guardians are equal or greater in power than all of these, and definitely surpass them paracausally. So why not Take them? Light can be blighted, after all.


#2

Because we’re both Light incarnate and we’re dead.

Allow me to explain. Ghost resurrected us back to life, and we have no memory of who we were before our death, yet some “spark” of us was reclaimed by Ghost and put back in the body. We’ve been blessed with the Traveler’s Light, and while it can be corrupted, the Light that the Hive eats is more or less “passive” Light. They can’t eat the “active” forms of Light, like Solar, Void, or Arc – we Guardians channel that energy. We’re not passive receptors but active wielders. Also, because we have the power of Light, that puts us on a more or less equal footing with the Darkness’s minions, including Oryx. Our precausality is what helps.

Now, if another hypothesis is true, and the “we” parts of us are actually inside our Ghosts, then we’re effectively a machine. Machines cannot be Taken, the same reason why Oryx can’t Take a dead person. The Vex had some biological matter to be Taken, but Shanks and Servitors don’t. Harpies are the only Vex that are entirely machine. You have to physically destroy the Ghost or drain its “passive” Light from it to kill it.

If Oryx could Take dead people, then why not just scan the battlefields of Mars or Earth and Take the dead bodies instead of launching an invasion? Ghost says (actually thinks, but we see otherwise) that Oryx’s power requires a living host to corrupt. See here: Ghost Scan: requires a living host.

Quria and the Tai Emperor Raven are not paracausal.

Well, I know for certain Quria isn’t, because if “she” were (using the Aurash simulation as a basis) then she could counter Oryx’s magic. As it happens, Quria discovered the paracausal nature of the Ascendant Realm and that worship was the best way to gain power from studying the worms. But no, Oryx destroyed all of her simulations and “toy worlds”, even says so himself. The Vex at this point in time are not paracausal; and still aren’t. The only places where they are is the Vault of Glass and whatever the Black Garden is. There they control reality and force us to obey those rules until we break them. Outside the Vault they are limited by what they can do. That’s why they want to rewrite reality; they want to remake the universe in their own image, either as a result of fighting Oryx or tangling with similar Hive forces, possibly Savathun’s.

The Tai Emperor Raven is just a powerful sun raven, probably with a power of her own like the pre-Darkness Vex, but I think her ability to “tickle” the gods is just metaphor. Even if she were paracausal, she was defeated by Oryx under the logic of the sword. But she did not have the Traveler’s active Light empowering her.

We do. We challenged Oryx under his own laws, defeated him on those terms, and then broke it by not consummating it.


#3

Your analysis seems spot on with the exception this statement. If this idea is true, how do you explain Shin Malphur? I realize this whole bit is messy because we have to somehow explain how a personality and memories can be restored from a pile of bones but in Shin’s case it seems pretty clear that he maintained his ‘self’ after becoming a guardian.


#4

[quote=“LedoftheRing, post:3, topic:189, full:true”]Your analysis seems spot on with the exception this statement. If this idea is true, how do you explain Shin Malphur? I realize this whole bit is messy because we have to somehow explain how a personality and memories can be restored from a pile of bones but in Shin’s case it seems pretty clear that he maintained his ‘self’ after becoming a guardian.
[/quote]

Then there goes that hypothesis. Shin Malphur is a giant hole in it, so I’ll discard it. But I will say this: we are tied to our Ghosts in a way, and Shin’s no exception. It’s our link to life when we are killed, and Oryx can’t negate that. Besides, Shin’s Light is powerful, otherwise he wouldn’t have been able to create a Golden Gun.


#5

Yeah I totally agree.

And the whole issue of guardian existence gets really tricky, especially when you try to make theories work with both ‘dead’ guardians and with Shin. Sometimes you just have to throw your hands up and yell “Space Magic!”


#6

And Light is also paracausal. Guardians decide their own fate


#7

The explanation that most Guardians are dead is what really puts the matter to bed for me. Though it’s plausible that the Traveler could protect us as well.

Shin’s Light is extremely powerful; even latent both Jaren and his Ghost, as well as Dredgen Yor, could sense his potential. He’s also the first Hunter to use Golden Gun on record. It’s pretty reasonable to assume he developed the technique himself, since he’s already been to the Tower and around other Guardians, yet the sequence isn’t written in a way that suggests he’s ever seen or experienced anything like it. It happens on instinct. And, of course, the weapon avatar in Golden Gun is The Last Word.


#8

Oryx cannot Take paracausal beings. He also can only take biological things. This is why he can Take Vex-their mind fluid is biological-but he cannot Take shanks/servitors/etc.


#9

I’d say there’s an exception to the “cannot Take paracausal beings”, though. If they fail to stand up to him, then by the logic of the sword, if he defeats them, he can Take them.


#10

I guess we’ll never find out for sure.


#11

Until Mr. Dickinson writes more high-quality tier work like the Books again. :ok_hand:


#12

Wait, how do we know that “Shin Malphur” isn’t just the name he gave himself after being resurrected?
The real hole in the theory in my opinion is Ana Bray because there’s no way she would give herself the surname “Bray” without reason right?


#13

WAIT, I just remembered. :sweat_smile:
Shin Malphur got his ghost while being a survivor of the collapse. So he never died.
It’s really weird that he just picked it up when Dredgen Yor killed Jaren Ward.


#14

I don’t think Shin just picked up the Ghost. He found it hovering over Jaren’s body and it encouraged him to take up The Last Word, and accompanied him from there on.

It, Jaren, Dredgen Yor, and Dredgen Yor’s Ghost sensed something different about Shin, perhaps that the Traveler’s light was latent inside him, and that’s ostensibly what led Yor to leave him the weapon and the Ghost to bond to him.


#15

But isn’t it strange that the ghost chose a live host?


#16

Oh, it’s strange all right.


Revised: Oryx is Super Dead
#17

Maybe it chose him because he was already ready to become a Guardian and didn’t need to die? There are always exceptions to every rule (although bear in mind I’m new to the Lore so I’m now off to read up on it).


#18

There’s always exceptions, yes. And don’t worry, you’ll catch up. :slight_smile:


#19

Why didn’t he take Dregs, Legionaries and Collosi? They are biological beings…


#20

To bring up another interesting point about Oryx taking Vex:

Since the Vex’s mind-fluid is biological, he is able to take Vex without an issue. So when Vex are taken, what happens to the mind-fluid itself? Is it corrupted by the power of the Darkness/Deep and cut away from the rest of the Vex network? The Vex mind-fluid connects every piece of Vex technology, including the unstable centaur, Nessus and The Black Garden on Mars. So if Oryx went and took all of the Vex that he did, surely the mind-fluid would have told the rest of the Vex “Hey wait something’s not right here tf”… You know?
If Oryx knew the full extent of the Vex mind-fluid, he could have, in theory, controlled the entirety of the Vex network by simply taking a few Vex and corrupting the fluid inside.

So big question: How exactly does Vex mind-fluid work?
More in-depth and on-topic question: What happened to the mind-fluid inside Taken Vex?