Oh I know what you mean. But my original statement was to make that point as someone had quoted it as proof Rasputin was on the wrong side, and I was merely pointing out how that could not be so. However I just think Saladin’s view is bordering on Bias; “The Vanguard and the Consensus hope that continued outreach towards Rasputin will develop into a strategic alliance.” And guess what? He now calls for human aid. Gives Golden Age weapons to Guardians in return for securing his safety. – On the other hand you have Saladin who is still salty that his stubborn pals got shredded before they could see their mistake realized. So I think that his OP that Rasputin is not what they hoped is not rooted in truth so much as his own opinion on the matter, because as I just pointed out - Rasputin has helped a bit (put one foot in front of the other) which is something and might continue to improve as the story goes on. After all, it is not like he will not eventually see how we are what is left of what beat the Darkness to begin with.
I think you’re probably referring to my comment here and I think I wasn’t being totally clear. I didn’t intend to use that quote as proof that he is on the wrong side, but was trying to convey that he may just be on his own side now and everything’s cool as long as we share his goals.
Your point regarding his ability to alter and reset moral structures is well-taken and may be the best evidence to argue that his choice to stand down was temporary. You also make interesting points regarding why he would make that decision.
However, I do think that we have to give Saladin’s (admittedly biased) statement some gravity seeing as how he’s the character with the most experience with Raspy. [quote=“Arcmind, post:31, topic:126”]
And if you think about it, Rasputin did not have to worry about what happened with SIVA if he was no longer a Warmind.
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Here is where I would point out a small but perhaps important point: Saladin states that he is no longer simply a warmind, this suggests IMO that Saladin has some knowledge that he may not be sharing openly about the nature of warminds in general and Rasputin in particular.
This very well may be right, we don’t know yet. However, there is a relatively robust strain of theory-crafting which questions why exactly Rasputin chooses to help when he does; the general thought being that he may be using guardians for his own ends rather than helping with ours. I’m not totally sold on that argument, just something that’s interesting to think about. I’d find some background info on it but my lunch break is up!
Ooops, I think it was your comment. Sorry I did not mention you, when I wrote my subsequent comments I had not thought to check back to see who wrote that and I forgot your username.
I see what you meant now, however I was attempting to convey that that Saladin’s testimony on this matter cannot be trusted because of his limited perspective in-universe as opposed to us who can see all events and the thoughts of each side. Whereas he can only interpret actions based on his views and what he thought may have happened. And regardless of his experience with Rasputin, examining the evidence, we see it is not enough to substantiate his claims; Lore-wise, we see that the Iron Lords wanted to rebuild our civilization and eventually stumbled upon records from Clovis Bray relating to SIVA and the Warminds. They then went to the Cosmodrome in search of it. Finding Rasputin dormant, they tried to wake him and make contact only to be attacked. Now seeing that this encounter was unprecedented by any currently known encounters with the Warmind in a manner that might give Saladin a factual and clear idea of what the Warminds were or their purpose beyond what their name implies. Therefore his experience with the warmind was from an ignorant standpoint - not understanding why Rasputin attacked, he views him as hostile whereas we see him as trying to contain defective tech. So it all boils down to a matter of perspective, being the readers, we know the thoughts, intentions and reasons of everything in the game. Saladin, being a character, only knows what he interprets based on his knowledge.
As for Saladin’s choice of words, I would agree that it sounds like there may be more to this than what we can see, but it also appears to mean that the Vanguard thinks him to be just a Warmind when in fact, he has changed much over the centuries.
As for him using us to his own ends; he is a machine, there is no reason for him not to exploit us as a disposable asset. Its what the government does every time it sends men into battle. The point is that our current relation to the warmind is a mutual one. In turn, he provides us with weapons to continue to protect him. Without us, his security is breachable, but with our help, his security is enhanced. So considering he will need our protection until the Darkness and its minions are defeated, I do not think he is totally unconcerned with our well-fare. Now when the Darkness is destroyed he will ask the same question: “Query: Reset moral structures.” and what do you think his answer will be?
Points well taken again. I guess I just tend to think that the writers approach dialogue very carefully and a phrase that carries such heavy potential implications is there for a reason.
As for what he does when the darkness is defeated: I shudder to think…
I getcha, but I would pose that sometimes writers do not exactly weigh the implications of what they write on the word-to-word basis. The word simply might have a larger impact on you because you are looking for meaning and purpose. So what it implies to you might be deeper than what it means to them, which may very well be a word synonymous with “just”. If I were to interpret that phrase, to me it would mean this: The Vanguard still believe Rasputin to be just a Warmind, but he has not been that for a long time. To me, this means that a Warmind is a very specific thing to them and to Saladin, he has evolved into something more than what he was before, and maybe this is what you were saying before, but if he did change, it would have been as stated in the Grimoire, his objectives > transformed by some vital information it obtained during those dark days. And when the Darkness is gone, his query will again be whether to reengage his population protection objectives, or to remain dormant. Seeing there is no longer a threat, he will not need to continue in Midnight Extingent, and he will return to his original purpose. After all, he has the ability to toggle between the two, seeing we are in an unusual predicament, he is going to change his stuff to suit that. Once things are normal,I believe he will be too.
Do we have any idea what Yuga and Voluspa actually are? Are they some sort of defensive measure not as violent as Loki Crown? Rasputin seemed to use them before Loki Crown is even mentioned.
Yes. According to the Darkness Grimoire card: Promote event to SKYSHOCK: OCP: EXTINCTION. Activate VOLUSPA. Activate YUGA. Cauterize public sources to SECURE ISIS and harden for defensive action. Though the exact nature and details of these measures is unknown given their context it can be gleaned that they are both defense measures which are meant to bring all assets online and on standby for immediate action. The following lines then proceed to shed light on Carrhae White; a program designed to allow Rasputin access to all Solar defenses.
For a more technical analysis on the words themselves and their possible context, check out this Bungie forum post.
GhostDante I salute you for the effort and time you took to lay out your thesis; but for me the theory of Raspy gut-shotting the Traveler who from much of the available Lore appears to be somewhat cowardly in its actions still seems to be the gist of the story to this point.
The Traveler seems to be some kind of Evolution Catalyst in that it would seem that it would “randomly” appear to different civilizations and sort of jump-start or boost their advancement. It also seems that the ever-encroaching Darkness provokes a Flee response and to me the “whirlwind” that the Eliksni speak about could be imagined as the “thrusters” of the Traveler going full sub-light prior to escaping.
To me the Travelers arrival to our Solar System seems to be in line with its Modus Operandi and I do think that Raspy being full on Mission Imperative: Protect the Meatbags analyzed a few things:
- The Invading Hostiles would invariably annihilate Humanity and so Raspy engaged his If-Then parameters and went into extended Sleep-Mode to wait out the Winter
- And perhaps his sensors detected the Traveler warming up its sub-lights and Raspy was essentially like, “Uh, no bump you, finish what you started.”
Again I have not spent nearly as much time as many of you with the grimoire but the various podcasts from Ishtar-Collective and Focus Fire Chat really compel me to think that this theory is plausible.
While the Traveler indeed flees in the face of the Darkness, we have no evidence to suggest the Traveler has “thrusters” as you say. Given that it has not crashed on Earth and rather “hovers” above it, I am inclined to say that its flight capabilities work very similar to that of Halo Cryptums, which do not utilize thrusters to launch them into orbit or way from it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec5rWLkCAVg - If you fast forward to about 7 minutes, you will see the type of flight I am referring to.
As for the Eliksni Whirlwind, there is nothing to imply it was explicitly literal, as many things in the Destiny universe are metaphors, with the Whirlwind probably referring to the Eliksni version of the “Collapse” or Calamity, as its second definition reads thus: used in similes and metaphors to describe a very energetic or tumultuous person or process. The accompanying definitions are: maelstrom, welter, bedlam, mayhem, babel, swirl, tumult, hurly-burly, commotion, confusion We also have the Doom of Chelchis which indicates that Oryx was present during the Eliksni Whirlwind, or Collapse, having killed Chelchis himself - precipitating their ultimate fall.
As for it having an Operandi, such a term is grievously incorrect in terms of fact when the only actual recorded instance of it fleeing while the Darkness destroys a civilization is the Eliksni.The Traveler was present for the Ammonite, providing the with paracausal weapons. It never stayed with the Harmony, only “passed” over their worlds and realigning their system. The Darkness followed suite soon after it had already left. Then we have humanity, and in the Grimoire Card Mysteries it says the following: I AM ALONE I survived alone. I cast off the shield and I shrugged my shoulders so that the billions fell off me down into the ash. They made me to be stronger than them and to learn and I learned well: IT is alone and IT is strong and IT won. Even over the gardener and she held power beyond me but the gardener did not shrug and make herself alone. IT always wins. If Rasputin forced it to stay, it makes no sense to say then that it did not do something.
In short; the only thing that makes the Rasputin shot the Traveler theory alive is speculation, and the dismissal of certain key details which prove otherwise. Not talking about you per se, just the concepts asserted by the theory itself.
Fair enough. Obviously much of the grimoire is told from certain perspectives that border propaganda and therefore a one-sided bias.
Not necessarily. The Grimoire card I referenced was authored by Rasputin himself. If he has something against the Traveler, he is not going to give it the credit for something he did and would have said something else. We then have the Traveler itself saying it decided to stay. In the end, lore is cross-referenced to validate it or not. Every card relating to the incident indicates the Traveler stayed of its own will. Nothing but opinion says otherwise. If you dismiss lore due to additional opinion, then there is no point in Destiny as nothing in it is concrete or true. The BoS are propaganda, but the very definition of the word is to spread rumors or tales crafted to shape an idea by those authoring it. The Cards are written by multiple characters within the world. And not all of them have an agenda like Oryx. So claiming all of the cards are propaganda, is another incorrect assertion.
Savathun flat out calls 'em propaganda. I take a middle view – that they are part history and part propaganda. Propaganda isn’t so bad all the time.
Savathun said the BoS were propaganda. Not the Grimoire collective. You must remember the compilation is Grimoire. Each card is either a record, journal entry, Ghost recording etc. Very few are written by someone I.e Thorn. So while many do contain personal views, the overwhelming majority are neutral and factual. But as you’ve noted, propaganda is not always bad.
Right, my mistake. 
No worries. That comment could easily be confused to mean the BoS. I was referring to the Grimoire cards as a whole. Perhaps I should have specified. 
It stands to reason that the majority of the grimoire shouldn’t be assumed to be propaganda due to the example of the BoS. The objective cards and those written by characters who we know to be reliable narrators especially.
There are, however, unreliable narrators and beings whose trustworthiness is in question - or those who clearly have a bias on certain subjects - other than Oryx.
That was my initial point: the Grimoire is not all authored by someone. The cards are simply a compilation of records - Rasputin’s Collapse protocols, journal entries of sorts (characters musing to themselves), events told from the 3rd person, and transcripted Ghost recordings. Now stuff like Thorn and Last Word were written by Shin so they may have a bias. GF: Shadows of Yor may also contain bias. Otherwise, the Grimoire must be taken as lore and correct. Otherwise, might as well dismiss destiny itself as propaganda because every story is told by someone. It yet remains to be seen how far off from the truth it actually was.
If we are treating the numbers as versions of rasputin, a decrease in number means a rollback to a previous version.
So he goes on, improving himself (probably for either self preservation, or preservation of humanity by not allowing the complete destruction of the warminds) and goes increasing his version numbers until the point he sees that he cannot win.
At this point he finds the point that he seems the best to return to, the one that he can better improve himself with the new parameters (V55) and roll himself back to that point, hoping that the outcome will be different in 101 itreations with the new inputs that the unverse will feed him.
Huh. That’s interesting. He forced himself to adapt to stave off destruction until he could no longer do so.