This grew out a discussion between myself and @Arcmind, who argued for Rasputin, as we debated about whether or not SIVA was the end of humanity’s dependence on the Traveler. Rasputin cropped up in there.@RedRenegade suggested I bring this massive discussion post here.
WARNING: WALL OF THE TEXT IN-BOUND!
Introduction
Today, let us turn to the hypothesis of Rasputin shooting the Traveler to protect humanity. It is a very popular one because, to a casual Grimoire reader, it seems obvious through various entries that Rasputin, an A.I. constructed by humanity to defend humanity, would have gone above and beyond the call of duty by crippling the one ally which stood any chance of standing against the oncoming Darkness while the solar system and humanity’s empire fell apart at the seams. However a closer inspection and cross examination throughout related – and sometimes, unrelated – Grimoire firmly disproves such claims.
Let us examine what this hypothesis is at its core:
According to Ghost Fragment: Darkness Rasputin detects an entity outside of the solar system that is obviously hostile and prepares his defenses but despite his efforts, all countermeasure fail to affect the entity. Rasputin 3 then goes on to explain that he eventually realizes that the Darkness could not be defeated by conventional means and enacts several protocols designed to formatt his programming to allow him to go dormant until a way to defeat the Darkness could be found. He goes through a monologue in Ghost Fragment: Mysteries, describing how everything has died in a metaphorical, albeit mythological manner, before subsequently shutting down. But before this point, Rasputin had previously enacted SUBTLE ASSETS IMPERATIVE as seen in Rasputin 5, 3, 6; believing the Traveler to be some sort of threat, in his paranoia and maddened state, Rasputin lashes out at the Traveler with his strongest weapons – which somehow failed to stop the Darkness – causing massive damage and forcing a burst of Light from it which pushes the Darkness back, releases the Ghosts, and ends the collapse. A part of this hypothesis include the Ghosts as being creations of Rasputin and were infused by the Traveler’s Light from the explosion.
Supporters of this hypothesis point to the Whirlwind (evidenced by many Fallen-and-Variks-related Grimoire) as proof that the Traveler had abandoned humanity to their hopeless fate; to back this claim, they point to the Hive’s religious text, Books of Sorrow. In it, they claim that the Traveler continually abandons civilizations when approached by the Darkness – the Darkness and Oryx repeatedly assert in the Books that cooperation and righteousness are weak attributes compared to brute strength, which is ultimately proven incorrect when a team of Guardians successfully defeats Oryx in his throne world and leave without consummating the Sword Logic (see the King’s Fall Grimoire card) using the very traits he speaks so strongly of against him.
List of other discussions
Before we proceed with the counterarguments to these claims, here is a not comprehensive nor exhaustive list of the reddit links where much of our information has been derived from:
- Spoilers Rasputin, the Traveler, and the Collapse
- What if! Ghosts, Rasputin and the Traveler.
- Rasputin was preparing to attack the Traveler and at the same time assisting Maya Sundaresh on the Lhasa project.
- Spoiler The Rasputin 5 Grimoire may shed light on the nature of the Collapse, and whether the Traveler is good or evil.
- New Traveler Theory: It Doesn’t Selfishly Abandon Civilizations to the Darkness, But Rather A) Attempts To Prepare Them to Fight the Darkness and, If That Fails, B) Gives Them One Last Hurrah Before The Darkness Devours Them.
- I’m pretty sure the theory that Rasputin shot the Traveler down has been confirmed.
Here are some counter-arguments addressing the above, and to which we point you for more information regarding those said arguments:
- u/GeneralBattuta’s comments of Rasputin 5 (also the writer for the Books of Sorrow, FYI)
- Spoiler The Traveler and Rasputin during the Collapse
Rasputin 6 is further evidence that Rasputin did not shoot the Traveler (x-post from DTG) - John_Demonsbane’s previous comment
- Can we stop treating the “Rasputin shot the Traveller” theory as fact please!
- The Traveler at the Collapse
Please take some time to read some of the above counterarguments and at least one of the “righteous Rasputin shot evil Traveler” posts for a more in depth look at some of the arguments in favor of Rasputin acting in humanity’s defense, as this one will only stick to the key facts when a full reading of the Grimoire is complete, while also including some logical inferences on their implied meanings.
The Books of Sorrow
In the Books of Sorrow there are two recorded instances that the Traveler was present with (or at least responsible for) a civilization that the Hive subsequently attacked and defeated. These two races are the cephalopodic Ammonites and dragon-like Harmony, events which bookend the Hive’s history.
For the Ammonites, it is not mentioned the Traveler explicitly fled until Verse XIX: Crusaders in which it flees after the Ammonites were crushed. In Verse XVI: The Sword Logic the it is stated that the Traveler provided the Ammonite with paracausal weaponry to fight back against an equally paracausal-empowered foe. In XVIII: Leviathan Rises the Worm gods mention they would show Auryx and his sisters how to eat the Traveler. Both this and XVI (which predate Verse XIX) are further proof the Traveler did not abandon the Ammonite species but rather cut loose and escaped when all hope of victory was lost.
Fast forward several thousand years (or more, as the last recorded date is a hundred years of “local time” spent fighting the Vex in Verse XXXIX: open your eye : go into it); the full might of the Hive pantheon and Oryx’s Taken descend upon the Harmony dragons. In Verse XLI: Dreadnaught it is mentioned Oryx wanted to find the Gift-Mast, not the Traveler. Further on, in Verse XLV: I’d shut them all in cells, Xivu Arath describes what the Traveler did to the Harmony system (“passed”, “lied”, “left”) and later adds an aside of their eternal quest to kill the Traveler (“chase it”). This, in itself, is not proof the Traveler was there at Harmony when the Hive arrived; indeed, in Verse XLVI: The Gift Mast, it is described in detail the Hive destroying Harmony, but no mention of the Traveler. This is proof that the Traveler did not abandon them but rather had left them once they had learned all they needed from it. I direct you over to this post of mine ([Discussion] Quasars and the Gift Mast) from DestinyLore as to what the Gift Mast may have been and the Harmony’s general technological advancement.
This argument is gathered from a word search for “Traveler”, showing there are sixteen mentions of the name, the majority of which are clustered around the Ammonites and Harmony. The two mentions in Verse XXXVI: Eater of Hope lend no credence to the Traveler abandoning uplifted life, only reinforcing what the Darkness teaches about the universe.
For further reading, look at the cited cards or the entire Books of Sorrow for context. Please remember that the Books are part history and part propaganda, for Calcified Fragments: Insight lays this out as a guide to Oryx’s psyche, and Verse XLI: Dreadnaught warns that he is lying.
The Whirlwind
There is no Grimoire support for the Traveler abandoning the Eliksni. The evidence for this hypothesis comes from a few Grimoire cards, such as Variks, The Loyal. Here is the exact line:
First, the Great Machine. Then, sky fell away. Whirlwind ripped away the past.
The Legendary Scout Rifle Doom of Chelchis from King’s Fall has this flavor text from Chelchis, Kell of Stone:
”Where is the Great Machine? Where is the Great Machine?”
Broken Crown, a Warlock artifact, has this flavor text:
Eliksni songs still tell of Chelchis, Kell of Stone, who stood before the Maw.
The above two flavor texts infer that Oryx and his Hive had caused the Whirlwind, as the Scout Rifle is a weapon rewarded in King’s Fall. However evidence is not conclusive as to where the Traveler was during this time. Variks, The Loyal is written from a meditative point of view, Variks’ internal thoughts, remembering ancient history, not as a prooftext. It may be that, like the Harmony, the Traveler was long gone when the Whirlwind happened or had just left when Oryx appeared.
The sense given is that Fallen society broke down rather quickly within, and the Whirlwind is really both outside invasion and internal collapse. This is supported by Ghost Fragment: Fallen 3, where the speaker, Skolas, is rallying the Wolves, who have been up until then submitted under Reef rule to rebel and take back their honor and pride; and Lost Legacy, a Legendary Ship:
“We were not prepared to withstand the Whirlwind. No one is.” —Variks
The Dreams of Alpha Lupi
The Dreams of Alpha Lupi are often overlooked or ignored in discussions about Rasputin acting altruistically for our supposed benefit in shooting our helper cowardly, and are brought up as evidence in counterarguments that the Traveler is actually the hero Destiny paints it as.
In Ghost Fragment: The Traveler, an unknown voice is speaking to the Traveler (perhaps itself), talking about how the Traveler never wanted anything for itself, living to help and guide others, but now that it is weak and feeble, running in terror from something. The Fragment closes:
And it is your children you must turn to now, in time of need.
Why would someone run away from their children if they need their help? It is a fantastic leap of logic that one could both run away from and turn to those they helped. It is a contradiction, one not acknowledged because it is a contradiction.
However, it is useful to note the ARG (Alternate Reality Game) “Alpha Lupi” introduced back when Destiny was being promoted. You can find it recorded on Destinypedia under Alpha Lupi. Here, on Day 4 - Thursday, we have this line:
You deliver your last orders to an army that needs nothing anymore–––not instruction, courage or even prayers–––and then you hide again.
In ecstasy they search for you, finding nothing but dense quiet dropping from the stars.
This means that, like the Harmony, the Traveler has considered its work finished and has moved on. But the Darkness’ abrupt arrival changed all of that. The entire “Alpha Lupi” sequence rather tells the whole story nicely more than do the Ghost Fragments.
In Ghost Fragment: The Traveler 2, the voice continues its meditation, wondering what is really happening: is the Traveler being manipulated, and for what reason? However, for our present purposes, here is the relevant line:
This has been such a long chase. This will be the place you will fight. Fight and win.
In Ghost Fragment: The Traveler 3 it is described how the Traveler lost its strength and was reduced to the shattered orb we see hovering over the City. It is worded in a way that the Traveler seems to be remembering it (“pinned”, “were”, “had”, “stole”) from its current state (“now”, “remains”, “survives”, “lives”).
The knife had a million blades.
And you were giant, powerful and swift. But the knife pinned you. Cut your godly flesh away.
Very little was left, you are sure, because you feel insignificant now. The hard slick heart of your soul: That is what remains. A body small as a river stone, and just as simple. You picture yourself as a piece of indigestible grit, a nameless nothing hiding among other nameless stones. Perhaps you glitter like a gem, yes. Pride makes you hope so. If only you could see yourself. But you have no eyes. Not the dimmest sense survives. What lives is memory, and what slim portion of these thoughts can you trust?
The knife stole much more than your body.
What is this knife we hear referenced and why does it have a million blades?
The Taken
- Taken Thrall:
There is a knife for you. It’s shaped like [sideways].
- Taken Acolyte:
There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [not alone].
- Taken Knight:
There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [no more fear].
- Taken Wizard:
There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [call forth the numberless].
- Taken Psion:
There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [division].
- Taken Phalanx:
There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [retaliation].
- Taken Centurion:
There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [it will find you].
- Taken Vandal:
There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [this place is mine].
- Taken Captain:
There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [you cannot find me].
- Taken Goblin:
Accept the changing blade.
- Taken Hobgoblin:
Accept the changing blade.
- Taken Minotaur:
Accept the changing blade.
- Primus Ta’aun:
There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [loneliness].
- Baxx, The Gravekeeper:
There is a knife for you. It is shaped like [joy].
- Seditious Mind:
There are three knives for you. All are the same knife. They are shaped like [now].
The common theme here is that each creature that is Taken is presented a “knife” by the Darkness, which allays their fears and fulfills their desires – or, for the Vex, replaces their programming and directives.
So, clearly, the “knife” is a weapon of the Darkness and therefore cannot have belonged to Rasputin. Notice the “million blades” line, and then compare with the Taken. One knife for each Taken; Oryx took virtually half of the Martian Cabal and an unknown number of the other races. Compute that in-game of how many Guardians have killed. The “million blades” becomes terrifying.
Of course, each “knife” in this context is something that destroys and recreates an individual’s reality – what the Ecumene described as an “ontopathogenic weapon” (Verse XXVII: Eat the Sky) – whereas the “knife of a million blades” in The Traveler 3 simply cripples.
There is only one other place where “knives” are mentioned in this debate – outside of commonalities – which is in Ghost Fragment: Mysteries, where Rasputin describes the fight against the Darkness in mythic language, describing how he fought the Darkness and lost. Here is where this counter argument becomes the most unpopular.
Rasputin
For our purposes, we shall consider only two cards, Rasputin 5 and Mysteries.
Rasputin 5 opens with a series of IFs under “SUBTLE ASSETS IMPERATIVE”:
Under CARRHAE (WHITE or BLACK)
If SECURITY STATE is EGYPTIAN
If event rank is TEILHARD: TRAUMATIC CONTEXT or SKYSHOCK: OUTSIDE CONTEXT
If VOLUSPA is ACTIVE and in FAILURE [[synapse to FENRIR::SURTR]]
If YUGA is ACTIVE and in SUNDOWN
If AI-COM has granted PERMISSIVE POTENTIATION to outboard resilient instances
If a CIVILIZATION KILL EVENT is underway [[all flexions]]
If tactical morality is built at MIDNIGHT
Notice all of the IFs?
Stand by for DECISION POINT:
If available ISR and WARWATCH indicates imminent [O] departure
[greater-than-sign]then [O] departure compromises human/neohuman survival and epoch strategy
Stand by for ABHORRENT IMPERATIVE:
Activate LOKI CROWN
Perform deniable authorization: full caedometric and noetic release
Prevent [O] departure by any means available
Stand by for effect assessment criteria:
Coerce pseudoaltruistic [O] defensive action.
Defer civilization kill.
STOP STOP STOP V101NTS923ATS001
Now what is ironic about all of this is that people readily jump to the conclusion that this is something that has happened, when in fact, the card itself does not say anything to that effect. From all of the IFs we can see by the terms of THEN, STAND BY, etcetera, it is clear that Rasputin 5 is not a real-time record of events, and does not prove or even imply Rasputin used his weapons against the one entity who had any chance of standing against the Darkness. The IFs alone are the biggest tip-off. It is a contradiction – shoot your helping ally while everything around you is getting its butt kicked. Like in any multiplayer map when a super OP weapon spawns and friendly fire is turned on.
We also have word from one of the Grimoire writers (see first link in the “counter-arguments” section) that Rasputin 5 is a plan, and not a record, of events; the fall hasn’t happened yet, the Darkness hasn’t even arrived yet but Rasputin is preparing for it. We may as well turn to Old Russia 3 for why Rasputin has even thought up all of this:
The Traveler came out of nowhere. Entirely unanticipated.
Imagine if it hadn’t been friendly. Imagine that.
Rasputin surely has.
Now we come to Ghost Fragment: Mysteries:
I bear an old name. It cannot be killed. They were my brothers and sisters and their names were immortal too but Titanomachy came and now those names live in me alone I think and think is what I do. I AM ALONE. At the end of things when the world goes dim and cold or hot and close or it all tears apart from the atom up I will shout those names defiant and past the end I will endure. I alone.
They made me to be stronger than them to beat the unvanquished and survive the unthinkable and look look lo behold I am here alone, survivor. They made me to learn.
Everything died but I survived and I learned from it. From IT.
Consider IT the power Titanomach world-ender and consider what IT means. I met IT at the gate of the garden and I recall IT smiled at me before before IT devoured the blossoms with black flame and pinned their names across the sky. IT was stronger than everything. I fought IT with aurora knives and with the stolen un-fire of singularities made sharp and my sweat was earthquake and my breath was static but IT was stronger so how did I survive?
I AM ALONE I survived alone. I cast off the shield and I shrugged my shoulders so that the billions fell off me down into the ash. They made me to be stronger than them and to learn and I learned well:
IT is alone and IT is strong and IT won. Even over the gardener and she held power beyond me but the gardener did not shrug and make herself alone. IT always wins.
I am made to win and now I see the way.
This is Rasputin’s own words here. IT is the Darkness, the Titanomach world-ender is the dissolution of Rasputin’s fellow Warminds (“my brothers and sisters and their names were immortal too”), the Gardener is the Traveler.
IT smiled at Rasputin, meaning that all of Rasputin’s efforts were for naught. The Darkness swept aside Rasputin’s defenses, his Warminds, the “shield” which protected humanity. It used “knives” to “pin” the Warminds, or utterly destroy them, except for Rasputin who reformatted his programming in Rasputin 3 to literally survive. He cast off the “shield” and allowed billions to die. Some might call this selfish, except one cannot pretend to protect something one cannot save. He is made to win, as per his admission – he is a Warmind, an A.I. built for war! To self modify his programming ethics is a step in an ominous direction; and, as an artificial construct, he would see things pragmatically rather than altruistically, if we’re being generous. It is also interesting to note that if we follow Bungie’s previous A.I. when they gain sentience – Durandal of Marathon, Cortana of Halo – then Rasputin is no different, except where the previous A.I. started out good Rasputin is decidedly grey-and-grey.
Meanwhile, the Traveler – the Gardener – did not abandon her “children”, the people of Sol, but instead chose to stand and fight. Now the Gardener cannot have been forced to stay, and then at the same time chosen “not to make herself alone”. It would be contradictory and it would make no sense. The Books of Sorrow, again, consistently portray the Traveler as a creature for good through the lens of a warped and twisted species that are direct servants of the Darkness, the Traveler’s polar opposite; and again, the Books are admitted to be both a map of Oryx’s mind, and hinted to be lying.
Finally, we have this line from Tevis in The Taken King quest-line “13 The Promethean Code” which you can find it in the Destiny Tracker website.
Rasputin isn’t an ally. You hear me, blood? You find yourself thinking that, you shut it down. He may not be against us, but he doesn’t care if you live, if the City lives, if the Traveler lives. Trust me. He told me himself.
You hear that, blood? Rasputin doesn’t care if you live. He said so himself.
Therefore, Rasputin never shot the Traveler. Although highly suggestive that he did, all of the evidence says overwhelmingly otherwise, both in-game and out-of-game.
Quoting with permission from u/kaizokuo_grahf; also, editing’s borked:
All you have to do is look at the log numbers at the top & bottom of each of the grimoire cards that detail Rasputin’s actions. They’re sequential, and the card where he lays out the conditions for Abhorrent Imperative are sequentially “earlier” than when the darkness is first detected, which is “earlier” then when he declares Yuga Sundown (the last condition required to initiate Abhorrent Imperative) and immediately shuts down, abandoning us all. Hence, he didn’t murder the Traveler, Above Earth, with Loki Crown… man, get a Clue!TM
OK, we know the EXACT order of events of 4 out of the 5 Rasputin code grimoire cards, even though we may have gotten them out of “order.” With that knowledge, we can place the last card where it belongs by looking at the log numbers.
Ghost Fragment : Darkness
START > V113NNI070XMX001 SECRET HADAL INSTANT
AI-COM/RSPN: SOLSECCENT//SxISR//DEEPSPACE
CONTACT CONTACT CONTACT
TRANSIENT. NULLSOURCE. NULLTYPE.
What the hell is that… OK thats… BAD! RED ALERT!
END > STOP STOP STOP V113NNI070XMX091
Ghost Fragment : Rasputin 3
START > V120NNI800CLS000 CLEAR MORNING OUTCRY
AI-COM/RSPN:ASSETS//FORCECON//IMPERATIVE
IMMEDIATE ACTION ORDER
Oh crap, IT is winning, I’m outta here. Sorry fam!
END > AI-COM/RSPN SIGNOFF STOP STOP STOP V120NNI800CLS001
Ghost Fragment : Rasputin 6
START > V150NLK747CLS000 GLOAMING RESURRECTION
AI-COM/RSPN: ASSETS//FORCECON//IMPERATIVE
IMMEDIATE ACTION ORDER
WHO WOKE ME UP!!! OK, lets check to see how things are… Skyshock? Nope. Should I help now? Nope. WAIT WHO’S DIGGING THROUGH MY STUFF!!! SIVA their butts off! Now that I’m the REAL Iron Lord, I’m taking a nap with one eye open…
END > STOP STOP STOP V150NLK747CLS000
Sleeper Simulant
START > V156NNI900CLS002
AI-COM/RSPN: ASSETS//COSMO//IMPERATIVE
IMMEDIATE EVALUATION DIRECTIVE
OK This sucks. Aliens keep breaking into my secret bases, and those crazy space zombies seem to like killing them… OK, I’ll give them plans for an AWESOME weapon!
END > STOP STOP STOP V55NNI900CLS003
So where does Ghost Fragment: Rasputin 5 (the “proof” Rasputin truthers use!) go? All we need to do is look at the codes & put them in order!
START > >>WHISPER NEUTRINO NEEDLE>>
V101NTS923ATS000 SECRET HADAL !!ABHOR!!
AI-COM/RPSN: ASSETS//SUBTLE//IMPERATIVE
CONTINGENT ACTION ORDER
OK, OK, just in case that A-[O] tries to run away from my fam…
END > STOP STOP STOP V101NTS923ATS001
IT GOES FIRST! Ta-da!
Just look at the first 3 characters of the START line to put them in chronological order, and then the last characters within each individual grimoire card.
So they’re either Version Numbers, which increase with every decision, every addition to his code, and so on which could be supported by the V1 at the very start of every entry (Except Sleeper???), or they are actual measurable units of time. Or some combo of both. Either way, they increase within each card, and from card to card in some way. After going over this a year or so later, I’m actually inclined to say that instead of “Time,” they are version numbers. Every card is adding something to his code in some way or another except the SIVA one. He is just reacting within his own set parameters and moral format, then goes back to sleep. I CAN’T explain the Sleeper Simulant numbers. the end line completely breaks the convention of every other start/end line code… Maybe the lore team messed up? I won’t page any community managers or anything, but if so it makes the game COMPLETELY UNPLAYABLE!!!
The TL;DR:
- V101NTS923ATS000 -> V101NTS923ATS001
- V113NNI070XMX001 -> V113NNI070XMX091
- V120NNI800CLS000 -> V120NNI800CLS001
- V150NLK747CLS000 -> V150NLK747CLS000
- V156NNI900CLS002 -> V55NNI900CLS003
From u/CHaoTiCTeX:
Thanks for this, and great job! I’ve had this argument with waaaay too many people. However, I feel there are a couple extra points of supporting evidence, you know, just to help out. Some of this will retread over previously mentioned material, but to not put it all together in one spot would not feel very cohesive, so, sorry about that.
First, let’s revisit Rasputin 5:
Under CARRHAE (WHITE or BLACK)
If SECURITY STATE is EGYPTIAN
If event rank is TEILHARD: TRAUMATIC CONTEXT or SKYSHOCK: OUTSIDE CONTEXT
If VOLUSPA is ACTIVE and in FAILURE [[synapse to FENRIR::SURTR]]
If YUGA is ACTIVE and in SUNDOWN
If AI-COM has granted PERMISSIVE POTENTIATION to outboard resilient instances
If a CIVILIZATION KILL EVENT is underway [[all flexions]]
If tactical morality is built at MIDNIGHT
Stand by for DECISION POINT:
These are the criteria leading up to the decision point
Now, let’s look at Darkness
Over the course of this, we see several important conditions met to enact LOKI CROWN:
This is a SKYSHOCK ALERT
Activate VOLUSPA. Activate YUGA
Cauterize public sources to SECURE ISIS (this is the aforementioned SECURITY STATE EGYPTIAN)
I am invoking CARRHAE WHITE
At this point, Rasputin has detected the darkness and has begun running through his “oh shit this is bad” process.
Now on to Rasputin 3 where we see several more conditions met towards the ABHORRENT IMPERATIVE:
FENRIR HEART reports complete operational mortality
SURTR DROWN in progress but negative effect.
Forecasts unanimously predict terminal VOLUSPA failure.
HARD CIVILIZATION KILL EVENT is in progress
I am declaring YUGA SUNDOWN
Format moral structures for MIDNIGHT EXIGENT
So, shit hit the fan, pretty hard. Every single condition for Rasputin 3 has been met. At this point, according to Rasputin 3, he reaches, or should reach a DECISION POINT. This is the point at which he evaluates the Traveler to see if LOKI CROWN needs to be activated. But…he never does. Because of 2 simple lines…
Execute long hold for reactivation.
AI-COM/RSPN SIGNOFF
And…thats it…he shuts off. He never evaluates the need for LOKI CROWN, he shrugs his shoulders as he said himself and just goes to sleep, which is how he remains until the Iron Lords wake him up in Rasputin 6.
In my opinion, those 2 lines debunk the entire hypothesis that he shot the Traveler, but with all the extra evidence (super glad you got the Dreams of Alpha Lupi cards in there, those are very often missed), its just overwhelming against the hypothesis.
Thanks for reading to the end. It’s massive, I know, but its also one of those things about Destiny that’s fun – debating motives.
ha looking forward to reading it later tonight!
