A Question on the Lore

So in the Lore entry “Gardener and Winnower” it talks about the Gardener, who I’m assuming is the Traveler based on previous lore, and the Winnower, who I think might possibly be the Pyramid, though that’s what I’m asking here. Can I get some opinions on who y’all think it could be referring to?
Here’s a link so you can get to it: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/gardener-and-winnower


I do not think it refers to the pyramids or the traveler. I am of the opinion that it refers to the Light/Sky and Darkness/Deep before they had their avatars and client species.


Guys, look at the book cover


I do not disagree that the book will eventually move to talking about the Traveler and Pyramids, but right now, we are before they arrive in the timeline/s in my opinion.

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You know, that would be a logical step wouldn’t it. One that someone who actually thinks would make… Guess who didn’t even think about doing that.

More eyes = more ideas. Do not get down on yourself. After all, there is that “do not judge a book by its cover” thing.

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True and now that I have seen the cover of the book, it almost raises more questions doesn’t it? I’m still trying to turn them into, you know, actual words, but it’s because I didn’t see it in the first place that I have these questions now.
One of the aforementioned questions being is this our solar system?

That makes sense. I have a feeling this will end up having the Traveler and Pyramids as the main foci and that we are in the “pre-story” to them, if you will.

while I’m assuming this is completely opinion based, do you have any sort of proof? the only thing we have that maybe on a good day might be proof supports the gardener being the traveler and vice versa

Proof relating to which claim?

I mentioned at the beginning that I made this to try and find proof or put together something that seemed like it could be somewhat reasonable or likely. At this point we don’t know anything related to who or what it’s referring to but from the “cover” of the book and the idea that the Traveler is the Gardner that you mentioned we’re assuming that it’s talking about the Traveler and the Pyramid as the Gardener and Winnower respectively. There really isn’t proof regarding anything we’ve discussed, we’re trying to see what connections we can find in these stories. If you are asking about the “pre-story” that Melkor mentioned, I believe that he is thinking that this is a story about before the Traveler and Pyramid came to the system. I hope this clears up your question regarding the proof of any of the claims.

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Ohh I thought I replied to Mel, was a bit confused when I saw your reply but it makes sense now.
And no it hasn’t, I already know the idea behind it and was asking for proof of Mel’s claims

The justification for my speculation is mostly that the Traveler is referred to as an agent of the Sky/Light and not the source for it a few times. This combined with the language that puts the Gardener and Winnower as extant before time and space encourages me to believe that the current narrative of Lifting the Veil is about the Sky and Deep.

I just had a new idea, though it currently has little backing, what if the gardener was indeed the light and the traveler one of its seeds, going world to world spreading life and advancing all.
while the winnower is the hive or other agents of the deep, going to the life of the gardener and eradicating the weak, and as by the sword logic the strong proving themselves more worthy to exist than their weaker brethren

does that make any sense? I tried to refine it but I’m pretty tired

(spitballing time)

perhaps the universe is the garden to such godlike beings? I do not know.

also I remember from somewhere of the existence of multiple black hearts and perhaps multiple black gardens, these gardens could represent strongholds of the winnower? and maybe this could make sense as the sol derisive vex I think worship the black heart as a higher life?

or maybe the black garden represents places of cleansed life? if so are there light gardens of chaotic life both weak and strong?

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I like that idea and it definitely has merit. I must wonder though, is the Sword Logic inherent to the Darkness or was it something dreamed up by the Worms and Hive?

I would say inherent judging by how the winnower separates what will flourish and what will fail. It seems that the winnower is only interested in the strongest. Maybe the Hive coined or applied the term sword logic, but the essence is the same.

Welcome to the community!

I would say your idea is a good one. Have you read the newest entry in the Unveiling yet? It describes a game that seems to take place between the Gardener and Winnower and it could be that the game turns into the Sword Logic eventually.

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Thank you for the welcome. I have read the latest entry and picking over it or between the lines and I agree it would seem it develops into the sword logic. From my interpretation and curiosity I’m interested to learn what eventually drove them to pursue each other across eons trying to eradicate one an other, if I’m right in thinking one is what we know as the deep and the other the sky.

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I’m a bit later than Melkor, but welcome. Thanks for taking time to further this random discussion I started. From what I can piece together, I’m lead to believe that the Winnower is the Deep, or Darkness, and the Gardner is the Sky, or Light, or they are part of each respective thing. I haven’t seen anything the confirms this, but I’m reasonably sure that that’s what they are. Based on what you were saying regarding the Sword Logic, I would agree that the Hive took the idea that the Winnower had and applied it to become stronger.

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Again thanks for the welcome :+1: in terms of lore it’s the most important book we have been given. For me and maybe others our only starting reference for the destiny universe was the books of sorrow, I knew nothing prior to that other than possiblities and theories. Now we are starting to see where it all started to take shape. Two entities (for want of a better word) breathed life and death into the universe. One happy to plant and see what took place and the other being purposeful and encouraging only the strong, I guess in some way laying a strong foundation of what was/is to come. Gaining an advantage maybe.