Is Jupiter Fundament? (Spinfoil Theory)

Ok, this is going to take some convincing for some people and I have debated this theory with people within my friend group but I have some substantial evidence that connect fundament with Jupiter.

I’d like to start with the name, “Fundament”. I suspect that events in the books of sorrow happened before humans even had named the planets within our system, so there is no reason for the hive to refer to the planet as “Jupiter”. The term fundament actually means the foundation or basis of something, which is a synonymous definition of “home”. Now, compare this definition to the Ghost Fragment: Jupiter Grimoire Card:

  1. Dreams of Alpha Lupi

“Even the largest body lets itself be pushed where it needs to be, seduced into nice, warm loving orbits. Persistence is the key.
Seafloors transform and then yank themselves skyward, shattering the icy crust. New worlds awaken in the swirling depths.
You build homes around this half-born sun ripped by storms and supersonic wind.”

So this is a little bit of a coincidence but there’s a lot more.
Let’s talk about the moons.

In a current study, you can see that now Jupiter has 67 or so moons however, in a 2011 (before the development of destiny) study according to NASA, there was only ABOUT 52 named and identified moons. Why is this significant? Lets look at the books of sorrow again:

  1. XIV: 52 and One

“Good news. The fifty-two moons of Fundament host a starfaring civilization far more sophisticated than anything you’ve encountered so far. Taox’s ship fled towards the large ice moon, where a species of bony six-armed cephalopods keeps their icy capital. Savathûn’s named them the Ammonite. They seem eager to grant Taox asylum. Idiots.
We tried appealing to their hopes and dreams. This was largely unsuccessful, basically because they’re already happy and indoctrinated. This angered us, so we’ve devised a plan.
Our organs detect a fifty-third moon in orbit of Fundament. A Traveler. Divine presence of the Sky. Now we know what arranged the syzygy.
You’ll have to kill them all and take their stuff. Once the Ammonite are out of the way, we can deal with the Traveler.
Do not hesitate. You’re fighting the hypocritical puppets of a cosmic parasite. Avenge your ancestors.”

So Fundament had 52 moons and we know that Jupiter has AT LEAST 52. It is confirmed now that there are more than that due to astronomical discovery. Lets take a look at the books again specifically the battles involving the Ammonites. Sound familiar? Yes, ammonites are those cool spiral looking fossils we see all over IO. How did they all get there? In fact, why are there other bones there? The large serpent like structures of bone we see all over the map. I suspect in my theory that there was a battle here:

  1. XV: Born As Prey

“This is unacceptable.
Are you so weak? Born as prey, and doomed to die by predator?
Auryx’s failure of resolve led us to catastrophe. The Ammonite fleets under Chroma-Admiral Rafriit have pressed us back to the sixth moon. Once more we find ourselves burrowing into a world’s core to survive.
Savathûn. You must draw Auryx out of his catatonia. Make him understand that the ideals of peace and stability he clings to are cancers — brutal, unjust obstacles between us and a fair cosmos. These are the bait stars the Sky uses to blind its slaves.
War is the natural rectification of inequality. The universe’s way of pursuing equilibrium.
Xivu Arath, you cannot defeat the Ammonites and Taox in line combat. We propose new tactics. Breed your armies back to strength, and find a way to disperse the broods across these many moons.
If we cannot defeat their strengths, we will infect their weaknesses.”

  1. XIX: Crusaders

It’s done. Eir and Yul feed on the Leviathan’s carcass. Xivu Arath has made a temple of the Chroma-Admiral’s impaled corpse. Below us, Savathûn’s poisons stain the Ammonite home sea black. Their screams flavor the void.
The Traveler has fled.
Do you understand, Auryx? Do you thrill at the secret, Savathûn? Do you relish the edge of this truth, Xivu Arath? Do you see the beautiful shape?
The Ammonite occupied a piece of reality. They rented their existence on fraudulent terms, making themselves happy and fat, fencing themselves in soft lies and sweet apocrypha. Saying: ‘we are peaceful and good, we harm nothing.’
Their golden age was a cancer.
They did nothing to advance the cause of life! They burnt up time and matter and thought on this solipsistic, onanistic pursuit of safety, insulating themselves from death, making a regressive pocket of useless stability. When they could have helped whittle the universe towards its final, perfect form!
And your people, suffering in the Deep, you became more worthy of existence than the Ammonite. You have proven it.
Look around the sky. Behold the great divide, the battle lines of the cosmic war. We are the Worm your God, but we are not the Deep Itself. We only move within it. You shall too. You shall venerate and study it and haunt it in its passage.
Will you lift your thoughts to the millennia, Auryx? Will you bend your will to the liberation of the universe, and join us in the war against the Sky?
We need champions. Crusaders. Help us save the universe. Help us exterminate that which would destroy all hope. You are oathbound to this task, by the covenant of the worm.
And you are oathbound to kill Taox. Wherever she’s hidden herself.

I bolded three things: Ice moon, 6th moon and the Leviathan.
So the ice moon that they’re referring too, I suspect is Europa, one of the ice moons of Jupiter. The sixth moon where the Ammonites are defeated is IO, another moon of Jupiter and the bones of a massive serpent on IO are the remains of the Leviathan of the deep.

This is a theory I have been diving into for the past several months and I’m beginning to see some substantial patterns in both of these gas giants. The final thing that I’d like to add is Jupiter is translated to father of the sky (the traveler)

Thank you

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What if the Ammonites are the things the Drifter encountered that sucked the light out of Guardians?
While this is a good idea, I don’t see this being the case, because then we would be able to see the STORMJOY or whatever the storm things are.
Good points though! And who knows, maybe it is!

The storm joys were actually inhabitants of the actual planet of fundament, the gas giant portion. Not inhabitants of the moons. Who knows what’s living under the fog of Jupiter!

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Also the planets that the drifter visited in the Ancient Apocalypse gear were much further out than Jupiter and they were snake like creatures.

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@IIIIINEROIIIII, Thanks for the clarification! Tbh the Hive stuff and all that confuses me at times, so thank you for the explanation. :grinning:

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While this is an interesting theory, and you have obviously found a few connections, Jupiter is not the Fundament.

The Books of Sorrow took place millions of years ago. Wouldn’t the Hive have wiped out our ancestors if they came across our solar system?

The Fundament is just a gas giant in another star system far away that has a lot of moons, the same way that a lot of gas giants have a lot of moons.

The author of the Books of Sorrow said something similar recently:

But in my opinion we don’t need the author to disprove this theory.

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I was actually unaware who actually wrote the books of sorrow. I’m actually the person that he replied to on twitter lol. The biggest thing for me is the bones and fossils found on IO. Why was there a species of Ammonites that battle the hive in the books and why is there bones of ammonites and large serpent like creatures there? I know that bones found on other planets are ahamkara bones typically but these don’t share the exact qualities. Why was there another living species within our system that seem to have worshiped the traveler (mass of structures under where the traveler was on Io)? Why are the taken there? There are just so many connections. Is it possible that the current destiny writers could have seen this planet as a potential fundament?

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And to add, life has survived multiple mass extinctions on earth, it could be totally possible that the hive did wipe out our ancestors if they were in our system, just like another mass extinction. It is totally possible that life rebuilt itself on earth while the hive were destroying other worlds.

Hive “time” could still be based off of the krill lifespan. Those 10 year krill in comparison to the 100 year lifespan of humanity and thousand+ lifespan of enriched humans after the traveler started terraforming. Just a thought.

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1000+? Do you refer to Risen humans?

I think he’s referring to Golden Age humans. It’s confirmed, according to the Speaker, that human lifespans tripled on the arrival of the Traveler.

Yes, I think. I know one of the original astronauts to meet the traveler claimed to live an extraordinary length of time

I agree with you. Especially when you look at the Awoken’s journey in the Distributary, time is really not a constraint in Destiny’s universe. This notion of a static timeline is faulty. There are limitless possibilities and there are plenty of examples in game and in the lore that seem to defy the logic of time. Take the perfect paradox and Saint-14 for instance. We received a weapon that we gave to him in the future. How does that sound any crazier than the hive originated on Jupiter eons before humans even inhabited Earth?

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Yes. Human lifespan right now is about 80 years, with a tiny amount living to or just over 100. Regardless, even if their medicine increased their lifetime up to almost 200, that is nowhere near 1000+ years.

The speaker says our lifespan tripled, but by the lore we get, nobody truly knows I think. I had thought I had read a reference to over a thousand years though, I will see if I can find where

I don’t think it really matters how old humans are in this debate. I think the point blades and myself are trying to get across is that time is relative, meaning that different locations in space will experience different variations of time. The Awoken experienced [paraphrasing based off of memory] 1000 years for every 1 year RELATIVE to our perception of 1 year in real time, while they were in the Distributary. It is completely plausible that the Hive experienced something similar. They were able to cut holes in space and therefore holes in time, relatively speaking. You also have Jupiter, which is about 11 times the size of Earth rotating at different speeds along different orbits. This too can effect relativity of space time. I think its more likely that 1 year on Jupiter is 11 years on Earth based on that scale alone. Meaning that 10 years for the Krill is actually 110 years for a human, if my theory is correct.

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Years are measured in the time it takes to make a full orbit around the Sun. This would mean that it takes 12 years for Jupiter to orbit the Sun. The cards also don’t specify if they mean Earth years or Fundament years. If the Fundament is even closer to its central star than Earth than this means that their years would be even shorter than our own. As it’s position in it’s solar system is not specified, we cannot say for certain that the length of their “years”.

As for the lifespan argument here, Melkor is simply correcting a mistake. The Speaker says that the life spans tripled over all, which means yes there can be outliers in this for people who had closer contact with the Light and Traveler. Such as the Astronauts who made first contact. This means yes technically both of you are correct.

It has been all but confirmed that the Destiny time system is about as straight forward as a two year old being given a pencil and told to draw a ball of yarn. It’s entirely possible that the Hive have bent time to such a degree that the Krill don’t even exist at our current point in the time line as the Traveler and Deep show about as much concern for logic as I do for getting up in the morning. AKA absolutely none. So basically, anything is possible at this point, with the paracasuality and abuse of all known physics and logic of the real world by the Light and Darkness. Sure they have rules, but it’s their own set of rules.

Another huge factor in this is the ambiguity that Bungie keeps. They either really like watching us squirm as we attempt to rationalize the Vex or did all of the drugs while writing them and don’t even know how they work themselves. Or more likely they are just waiting for us to admit defeat or figure it out ourselves. All of these ways aren’t very useful for our brains. But anyways, TANGENT. The point is that Bungie doesn’t reveal a whole lot to us lore wise to my knowledge. Which is great! In certain ways. With very few established rules, it seems someone could make something and explain it by saying “space magic” or “the paracasuality of literally everything in this universe allows me to do this”. Which… is sort of scary as a creator myself. Few established rules means that people can get away with bat shit insane things (pardon the language, I need the emphasis). But enough of my sleep deprived rantings. It’s nearly 12 and I have high school tomorrow. Leave your thoughts below and I’ll do my best to answer them when possible. I need to finish a bio on the Destiny universe for a dimension hopping Discord RP server.

Never stop asking questions, no idea is never too insane until proven to be, stay in drugs and don’t do school.

-Jubi

Edit: End of sanity SCREAM

To add to your theory, the path of oryx toward the “deep” could also be seen as his path in our system, to the middle. Or you can look into the moons of fundament are listed as 52 and 1 I believe. Saturn I believe is where the dreadnaught is located, and by chance it has 53 moons. Huh

Nessus could be the moon the traveler kicked out of orbit to watch the jail.

Only reason I’m leaning towards Jupiter over Saturn is the presence of Ammonite fossils on IO along with the bones of a massive serpent / leviathan-like creature. The way I see it is IO was once a moon populated by oceans and the Ammonites were an amphibious civilization that worshiped the Traveler. That massive crater we see at Giant’s Scar on IO could have been an ocean that has been dried up. In the books of sorrow, we see Savathun poison the oceans of the Ammonite civilization. I believe this is what killed the Ammonites that we see on IO. There is no explanation for them being extinct but I think hive intervention is a large contributor given that we see both the Taken and the Vex on IO.