My hopes for the future of destiny [possible spoiler alerts]

In all my dives down in rabbit holes, I have noticed many recurring themes throughout the timeline. Over time certain events keep playing out over and over on different scales and can be seen from both sides of the coin.
These events I believe are built into our universe from its very inception.
The very point at which our universe became unbalanced, the cyclical nature of our universe would be the result of a grand event that left reverberations throughout the destiny timeline.
The battle between the deep and the sky created a rift in the timeline back when the atom won over the primordial as Toland puts it.
I believe the battle that Toland refers to was the start of the fundament.
What if the deep, and the primordial broth, and magic are all the same thing? Chaos!
On the other side of the coin we have the Sky, atom, and science. Order!
With this idea in mind what if the fundament is the end of that first war between science and magic.
But who lost that war?
We know the worm/s were deep in fundament in a cell built to hold a go[o]d.
But let’s look at it from the other side,
We know fundament was surrounded by moons but also highly advanced species mostly spacefaring and technologically advanced.
So if these combined advanced races of ancient times had succeeded in trapping the worms inside fundament in the first place why not just kill it if it was such a threat?
If the greatest minds from the advanced species all collaborated together in the end on what to do with the creature of magic they had captured, what would they do with it?
If the worm gods started out as ahamkara and were experimented on to extract their wish giving powers what would be the ramifications of such a thing in any good story.
If like gods in others stories, if you can never really kill a god you only just split them into parts of itself. What if the alpha ahamkara was a five headed dragon? What would you need to take from a magical creature to use it’s power? Like riven maybe the heart? Or maybe a head or two? What if like oryx they just cut the worm in half and neither died?

But I wanna go back for a bit, back to the beginning and back to Tolands three queens card.
I would like to invoke the idea of the Sky as it is now is still in alliance but they don’t know it anymore.

Ever finish a public event on earth an ghost remarks that “the Cabal lost everything and I mean everything”
I believe this is a tongue in cheek reference to the idea that they once ruled everything, they were the “Empire”
They had already become the last queen Toland refers to.
Some look at the cabal and just see the army presence, but what about their ancestors?
If the Cabal we know was just the military arm of the actual “cabal” of races, what would make up the other two queens from a sci-fi point of view.
For a queen that built a tower to the stars, I see the vex as this idea being brought to life in full, that constant expansion, the conversion of all matter to vex just like a galactic siva.
Now the third queen or the first listed in the card is the queen of law, the “just rule” the idea of making decisions for your followers, and always keeping their best interests at heart. This queen of law imo would be a AI or even a warmind, a program that guides the cabal networks in unison towards a common goal,
If the Emperor has no body of his own, could he be an ancient program invented and improved on over time with the help of the scions?
So if the Emperor AI at one time not only ruled the cabal army but also the vex and their abilities in construction, conversion and simulation.
Now with this trifecta of queens at the end of times before Oryx brought vengeance out of the fundament, the EMPIRE was at its peak of power, they had won against the god of chaos as they seen it and stolen its power to be used by themselves.
If the traveler was just a pawn to the empire, a galactic “life engine” which the Empire would use alongside the vex to create, advance, and study life to find a way to become immortal or to ascend to the next realm.
Like the krill were under study and were the hope of the Sky (in a place of death the study of life is the most important) the traveler and the vex also studied life, with the ability to create worlds and progress the evolution of a species and the wipe the slate clean and start again.
If the empire studied real life on the surface of fundament, and a simulation of life out in the universe. What would be the harm in that? No harm until the simulation gains awareness. In a galactic simulation at what point do you consider a subject aware?
The subject would need to realize it is in a simulation, at that point it would become self aware and life would of been created. IMO.
This idea could lead to the destruction of a simulation solar system, if a subject is allowed to escape the “test” area the simulation would achieve self awareness and be a true life form. But the kicker is if you kill the subject before it escapes the simulation, no harm no foul, all laws of ethics are followed.
Ok so we have the traveler and the vex building simulations and seeding simulated life across the universe, but we also have the other side of the study back where it all ended and started.
The study of life and evolution, here is where everything goes wrong.
With the control over magic in the hands of the Sky and the entire universe in order, what went wrong?
The Balance was off, to have harmony and balance, you must have chaos with order, the idea that anything can happen is a good and bad thing but it balances our lives. On a galactic scale this idea of anything can happen, the fire without fuel is seen in destiny as a wish granting dragon, the ahamkara.
Without the chaos of wishes or just the idea behind some magic in the universe the balance must be restored, life will find a way.
When the sisters get to space with all their new power they go on a killing spree, not just destroying species but all their history and worlds.
If the fundament was the cradle of life for the empire, it would make sense that it would be surrounded by the elite of the Empire.
The leadership of the empire was wiped out and all communication lost to the outer colonies, along with the ability to control the vex collective. Like Rasputin was, and the vex are, the emperor AI is a fractured part of its original program.
So at the unknowing sword of the hive the empire has been reduced to some lost vex still trying to build, some others that have become self aware with their own ideas in the absence of a prime collective mind.
Wow what a rant lol.
Ok so where was I, at this point the lore we know begins to take shape, the hive go on their crusade to eliminate all life following the traveler in the end to our simulated solar system. The travelers children are its last hope to stop the destruction of the entire universe.

Ok back to the start.
The idea of a great event leaving ripples in time, the idea that certain events will keep repeating until the balance is restored.
So let’s look at a couple repeating themes in the destiny storyline.
So in my opinion these themes seem to repeat in destiny.

A prison.
The splitting of a entity.
The collapse of a civilization.
The search for greater knowledge and power.
These four ideas can be seen multiple times throughout the timeline in destiny.
Let me start by saying these four ideas that I believe reverberate through time all began with the theft of the “power of the gods” lol
If the story started with the splitting of the worm god, the imprisonment of a god, for the search of greater powers which in the end leads to the collapse of one side of the coin or the other.

A prison can be seen in the fundament, PoE, deep in the dreadnaught in the old strike, the trapping of the traveler by ghaul. in some prisons the one in the deep of it dies and in some, the one trapped breaks free or is set free.

The splitting of an entity can be seen in the fundament through the forced symbiosis with the worms, the splitting of the traveler into multiple ghosts, the division of Osiris in the infinite forest, among other’s.

The collapse of civilizations can be seen also starting on fundament with the krill and then onto the empire that surrounded fundament, also on earth with multiple events from the initial collapse and the red war and possibly again this year in destiny.

The search for knowledge and greater power is also a recurring theme, the initial creation of the traveler and the fundament, oryx and his search for the deep, ghaul and his need to be acknowledged by the traveler, guardians in their search for power and knowledge.

These all could be simple story concepts repeating out of a loss of ideas, or a greater overall plot worked into the very core of the game universe.
So where might this lead in the future? If the timeline is cyclical in nature a loop of events would be predictable at its core but would have many possible outcomes much like a vex simulation does, but a cyclical timeline is not a simulation but a loop of events.
To break the loop we must “fix the timeline” and let the universe balance itself.
How might this be done imo?
We would need to accept that the darkness is a natural part of our universe, the chaos that magic brings to the order of a structured scientific universe is what would allow a everlasting timeline, with the existence of a unending amount of possibilities through the existence of “wishes” in a universe, it could possibly live forever. scientists have a more terminal view of the universe.
So if we need to bring magic back to the universe, haven’t we as light wielding guardians done that?
I say we definitely bring chaos to the universe but it is still too structured to be true chaos. Is it our universe that we are bringing magic back to? If in the end our solar system is a simulation, then we need to escape with the magic to bring it forward or backward in the ascension of realms, to bring magic back into a world in its full glory.
If the rumours of guardians using the darkness in D3 are true, and the darkness is only the “idea” of being able to wield magic, why not.
To wrap up this rambling of chaos theory lol. I want to look to the future of destiny. If these last four seasons change the world as I hope it will, and our guardians get to transcend to a different reality, a new ever evolving world with unlimited possibilities and the switch to a more DnD style of story and adventure.
If you made it this far I congratulate you, if you can understand any part of this rant I commend you.


One question I have to this is what you meant in saying

What does this mean because I spent a solid two minutes staring at it, looking it up, and then staring at ti some more trying to understand.
Other than that, I’m going to reread this and hopefully take in some more information because has quite a bit it. From the little bit that I understood from it, it looks very interesting and I look forward to discussing this to try and understand more of what you are saying.

Also, is there a source to this or is an idea that you had?

honestly this is so fragmented and full of pure spinfoil that its hard to read and understand, I’m currently trying to, and failing (edit) should come up with something to point out any discrepancy, gonna take a bit though

I’m in the same boat right now and that’s why I’m asking my questions.

alright im making this comment as I read,

  1. I feel its always nice to add a prompt/hook at the beginning of things like these so we know what this is all about rather than just jumping in and switching topics rapidly

  2. I’ve seen your previous “connections” and they were very loose at best

  3. Im only a bit in and I already think there should be major spinfoil warnings

site this, I remember the card but I dont think it mentioned the deep and sky battling, just the atom winning over the primordial broth, site everything actually, there are no links or quotes back to the lore in any of this


What the f… what… I am honestly so confused right now first off there is no proof for your first claim, second I’m quite sure Toland was speaking of non atomic matter, third when has the sky who magically brings people back from the dead and makes superheroes represent science, order and the atom? and please site the last one, I dont remember any mention of a cell being built, only that when the hive found them they were currently trapped

for the first when does it say oin the lore that this ever happened, please fucking site this all, and even more you just say this and then move on to something else entirely afterwards just ignoring it? secondly… just another wtf moment, you are legitimately just asking a bunch of what ifs with no proof at all, honestly I have doubts of your mental state when writing this

rapidly switching topics once more I see and you do know that Toland wasn’t referring to three actual queens? it was a metaphor for how Mara should rule, not actual representations of things in game (apologies if i have a detail or two wrong but if my memory serves me well all should be fine)

im just going to stop here, please for the love of all that is destiny fix this, ill read on and continue this later

of course, this entire thing could very plausibly be a joke, if so WOOOOSH

(edit apologies if this was rude, but I am incredibly confused with this all and find it needs fixing, or at least explaining)


Sorry autocorrect lol became was what I believe i meant

Since some of my readers truly enjoyed my latest rambling, I wanted to expand on my ideas , and where my train of thought began.
I definitely have a different view of the lore in destiny. My view stems from the idea of the universe before fundament, what events and choices were made to lead to the start of our story.

All the lore we get from the beginning of destiny we know was written by oryx, of his encounter with the worm and then his destruction of highly advanced races after gaining his new powers.
But before the deep the sisters were of technological species
The idea that only guardians the hive and ahamkara use actual forms of magic in game brings us back to the fundament.
It was in the deep of fundament the krill made their pact, but the traveler was also there at the time around fundament and possibly before.
Also advanced species were the first the hive came in contact with.
I am prone to think of the big picture and view the lore in the context and perspective of the NPC who wrote or said it.
To take anything at face value in the destiny lore is from my perspective falling into the carefully laid trap set by Bungie.
The lore we get for the beginning is given to us by a krill sister who knew nothing about gods before she met the worm god, the campaign of the hive destroyed many advanced races.
We know the worm god was trapped or forgotten about down in the deep for a very long time.
My interest is in the why and who, of how the worm gods were abandoned in the deep of fundament.
I believe in the “theft” of magic at the core of the story because a dragon is the only natural user of magic in game lore. The rest use a symbiotic relationship to wield their magic.
So if the hive form of magic can be traced back to the worm gods, and the guardians can be traced back to the traveler and fundament. Could the traveler be the other half of the god equation?
The worm gods refer to themselves as go[o]d and Rasputin refers to the traveler as [O]
The thought of the traveler also being a prison but not for a body but a mind or soul.
If the vex did have a part in the traveler or were once in league with it, the idea of a vex simulation to control a mind or to even give it life like we see with the Exo.

Yes of course my theory is based from “what if’s” because there is no true proof in the lore, but the concept of greater powers that existed before the time of the hive definitely show their face between the lines.

By no means do I believe I have the whole story correct, but I do see a definitive pattern in the way the story is written, the cyclical timeline along with the forces of magic and science battling for supremacy.
If the deep is magic and the sky is science in the destiny lore, then you can see the balance trying to restore itself in game.
I have always felt that destiny followed a specific group of gods to tell their story, much like the three queens are just ideas on ways to win the battle of evolution, gods are also taken from the history of earth, or D&D to be exact.
The concept of four ideals that determines what you stand for.
Coincidentally these ideas when matched in dnd give 9 outcomes
Now because good and evil are completely based from the social understanding of a civilization and have no universal understanding, I want to view them both as life and death, a good god represents life and a evil god represents death.
Definitely not a new concept.
No I am going to see how well that concept fits into the destiny lore.
First: the gods of destiny, I believe we have 4 that have been in game supporting different species.
So the hive worms followed the deep, the cabal emperors god was out past the edge, the vex god is inside the black garden, and the traveler is sitting above the last city.
Now to just give each a label is to easy, like DND each should be a mix of the four.
Lawful good
Lawful evil
Chaotic good
Chaotic evil
Now from D&D I have pulled their concepts on these four “ways”

Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.

Ok so back to our four gods,
the first was lawful good,
I believe the Emperor and his god fall into this ideal.
(If you believe the emperor and his good nature)
If the Emperor is truly the kind hearted ruler he claims to be and was told by his god to go and watch the end, and enjoy it. Everything fits if you can view the cabal as a honourable race of galactic warriors.

Ok next up is lawful evil
Now I see the vex god as this evil god of order, in the end the vex will consume the universe and have no true regard for other life forms, this forced oppression is the worst kind of evil. No vex ever has a choice either through the idea of “one” single mind or complete control over the masses. This kind of evil is often portrayed in tv and movies, like the borg from Star Trek or the machine overlord in the matrix.

Third I had listed chaotic good, along with chaotic evil as fourth, and this is where things can get strange depending on how you view the power behind the guardians and hive.
Both the hive and guardians fall into the chaos concept as they can both wield magic and have become paracausal in nature. But who is evil and who is good?

We both kill everything, the hive seek it out and guardians wait for it to come to our solar system.
We both war on members of our own race, the hive because “love is war” and the guardians because of the crucible.

What truly sets us apart from the hive?
Let’s look at the core of each entity.

The hive were living creatures that were given eternal life through the pact with their symbiotic worm.
The guardians are dead things brought back to life to defend a giant ball that was the initial reason for most of our deaths. (Mind you it is said the traveler gave its life to push back the darkness, but it is also said the traveler might be the reason the darkness came.)

So we have an immortal race of bugs that is following what they believe to be the only way, they believe they are right in their hearts and minds.
And we have guardians who by definition are connected with necromancy, we also follow blindly without a true sense of purpose besides kill everything the vanguard tell you to, and practice killing each other in your spare time.

The idea behind life and death falling in line with good and evil can be shown in the base of each form of immortality in the hive and the guardian.

I must say that good must fall in line with the hive, and we as guardians get to be evil.
The beliefs that the hive follow are noble to them because their gods imparted their crusade on them, showed them the path to walk, and a religious crusade no matter how misled is still the most honourable path a religious king could undertake.
And back to the evil guardians, followers of the traveler, linked with our tiny necromancer that lives in your backpack, willing to kill anything if the price is right.

Ok so now I have broken down my ideas behind the gods in destiny I would like to return to the pre fundament universe and the possible structure or the avatars of gods back in those times.
Now with any good religious beliefs, or fantasy structure the idea of splitting the god/s into ever increasing numbers and different aspects of the one who is above them in power, the idea that even the act of having a child splits the structure of the parent entity into opposing forces to keep the balance.
So if we have four gods now, before fundament we would of had only two, the sky and the deep we know of but what did they stand for using the four possible ways to hold the balance.

If the deep was/is the idea of chaos through the ability of magic. And this ability resided in the ahamkara only. The ability to grant wishes and change the future.
And the sky was the opposing force to chaos, lawful would be the only choice, a scientific group of entities working together, this would fall in perfectly (IMO) with a advanced empire under the rule of the emperor AI.
Good and evil were shared across both ideals, as were life and death.
The Cabal of species lead by the emperor would of combined all the willing species to his cause and destroyed the rest.
The dragons could not stop the cabal unless it was wished by another creature.
Their ability to affect life and death is hindered through the rituals of their own magic, their unlimited power is bound to the imagination of the wish maker.

This I believe, like Toland states in the three queens card was the first war between the primordial deep and the atom sky.
The magic lost so science rules at this point in time.

I hope this ramble helps to confuse and confound its readers as to the base of my theory.
I’m sure that Bungie will be much better at telling the true story over this next year.
The cycle of our timeline has reached its end/beginning once again, a collapse is eminent and I once again hope Bungie uses this next year to introduce the truth of our destiny and the future that lies beyond the veil.


I am… surprised, impressed and slightly proud though I don’t know why. Though at first your seemingly mad ramblings made little to no sense, now I suppose that feeling is gone. And indeed it is quite an interesting spinfoil theory, apologies for my initial reaction though I felt it was needed with the state of this post back then.
Good work I guess I’m trying to say

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Okay, so, from Ghost Fragment: Darkness 3, subtitled From the Journals of Toland, the Shattered:

“Why do we have atoms? Because atomic matter is more stable than the primordial broth. Atoms defeated the broth. That was the first war. There were two ways to be and one of them won. And everything that came next was made of atoms.”

Atom winning the war over primordial broth is a poetic description of an early cosmological epoch, specifically recombination, where the first neutral atoms formed. Before that universe was indeed filled by a primordial broth, a mixture of subatomic particles and radiation, with various properties and distributions over time. (Recombination is estimated to have occured around 370k years after Big Bang) Primordial, meaning of the beginning, and indeed this mixture is the source of all visible matter. And broth, again, is poetic description of how this mixture.

This slots into Toland trying to explain Sword Logic, and it’s superiority. Atoms are, or at least feel, simpler, stabler than the complex mixtures of particles and radiation of earlier universe. Certainly their ineractions are simpler. Which is the entire point of Sword Logic, to hone the universe into it’s simplest, strongest, most stable state.

Toland is not saying that recombination is a part of the conflict between light and dark, or sky and deep, or bomb logic and sword logic, or whatever else vague concepts we may end up pitting against each other, but rather that recombination was analogous with later conflicts. They all express a true facet, according to Toland, of existence, that the struggle to exist against others is existence itself.

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What you believe about that card are definitely valid points, at face value that card can be seen to imply the concepts of the struggle of evolution.
The problem I have is, this card may be based on real life ideas, but it takes place in a game as part of a sci-fantasy world. The story we get in game uses ideas such as Tolands 3 queens that is based off of the red queen hypothesis in real life, it is also used like a lot of other lore, as a metaphor to span the gap between the game world and the real world.
This use of metaphors throughout the lore to make connections with our known universe is put to amazing use imo.
Too many take the lore at face value, even after Bungie remarked that the grimoire could be seen as folklore.
No body should expect Bungie to just lay it all on the table in D1, we have been drip fed the exact lore that Bungie wanted you to see.
D1 was by design a game of chaos, in the lore and game, it seemed that Bungie had no idea what was going on one day to the next with regard to the game or lore.
In the Taken king things changed for the better, we got more linearity in the lore and the changes to the gameplay also improved a bunch.
In D2 it seems that Bungie pulled everything together in terms of storyline and gameplay, they made big improvements in the way the story was told and added many cool new stuff to the gameplay in the form of new supers and the like.

I feel these were not by accident but design, Bungie for sure had problems in D1 but then also played everything up a bit in my opinion to make sure the first year was known for the chaotic experience that it was and what new game could/should be.

So going back to my theory on gods in destiny, I believe Bungie wanted to follow that same structure of chaos-order, good-evil to also describe their expansions to destiny.
Now if you can understand what I was getting into in my earlier posts with the division of god avatars and the use of the D&D way of alignment used in destiny, I believe the same idea was meant to be followed for the avatars of each large expansion.

If the guardians are the avatars of chaotic evil our birth in D1 would fit with D1 being the chaotic evil beginning of our game.
Next big thing was oryx, who brought with him lawful good, with oryx came great improvement in the lore with the books of sorrow and gameplay was improved through changes to the sand box and activities.

So next we got the red war, a rough time for guardians, or was it?
Our cool gear was all lost, Gary trapped the traveler and tried to steal its power, we actually had to WALK.
But in the end the traveler defended itself, we got new powers and we became best buds with calas.
So everything was thrown into chaos with the traveler and the red war, but we made some friends and are pretty happy now,
So in my opinion this is the era of chaotic good.
So last we have shadowkeep, if theories hold true this will be the era of lawful evil.
This era will include the vex as well as the remaining hive sisters who broke from their original pact with the side of good also the fallen will return to glory before the end.
The age of lawful evil begins next week, the solar system will not survive the next coming of the darkness.
The funny part is I believe we the guardian will be the ones to light the match that sets the system aflame.

A great place to start to show the original Empire is the fundament.
“If” like I believe, the cabal and vex were both part of the empire under the rule of a Emperor AI, or an actual cabal who went the way of an exo, then with this in mind reread the BoS and look for signs of their ancestors, such as a thought ship or military arm of the empire, even the leviathan from deep in fundament could be seen as a vex form, with its array fins and crackling with the lightning of its life.
Look at the creatures that the hive destroyed and what those creatures said to oryx.
The clues hidden in the text are amazing.
How else would Bungie write a story.
If you know how to read the past you can predict the future.
This season we will learn about the fate of the Ishtar collective vex mind explorers.
We will also learn how crota came to be in our moon, and what came with him.

Crota and his link to the vex might be explored, also the link between the traveler and the vex might be explored.

Ok so how do think I know what is about to come up in the lore?
Well there is a proven method that has followed true since D1 with the exception of the siva expansion.

If you look into the past from the point your guardian is reborn on destinypedia and the follow the timeline backwards you will notice that all events in our past are a yin or yang to events that happen in our future.
In our past in order back in time you will find a link to VoG, and then crota, then reef wars then crota again, then siva, then the dark ages then collapse.
Now if you look at our timeline after we are reborn you will see the yang to the yin of each event in our past.
We beat VoG
Then crota
(if you follow the thoughts of Luke Smith you know that oryx/crota was originally one raid that got split)
Next we got PoE
Followed by Oryx
Followed by siva
Followed by the age of Triumph
Followed by the red war.

Now with each new expansion Bungie has released the lore that corresponds with each earlier time pre rebirth is also released.

Check it out.

During the red war we would of lined up with the collapse in our past.
In game the Cabal got to us without warning.
In the collapse earth knew the darkness was coming.
The Cabal went to capture the traveler and steal its power.
The darkness was coming to kill everything?
The traveler awakes and takes its power back.
The traveler pushes back the darkness and gives it power to the guardians.

Now after the traveler awoke in D2 the lore that we got should of come from the events leading up to the collapse in our past.
Now we knew in D1 the awoken were some type of fusion of light and dark, but in D2 in the correct timeframe to match up with what truly happened the lore was released to us.
This idea of releasing knowledge that coincides with the matching timeframe pre rebirth of the guardian lines up almost perfect when you look at it from that perspective.

Now we have progressed forward in time in the game now to shadowkeep, and this should mean the lore we receive will not only be about what is happening now in our destiny universe, but will include stories of events during our golden age, that lead to the collapse.
Many stories are left unanswered, but from the golden age a few stick out for me.
The Ishtar collective group that explored the vex simulation with copies of themselves.
The Exo program beginning and breakthrough.
How crota came to the moon, if he was there same time the traveler showed up.
The whirlwind and the fall of the fallen.
Clovis Bray and his “map” and what he did to add to the map.
The truth behind the hive sisters, and what they did after oryx.
All these questions will soon be answered in this year I hope🤞
Our timeline is getting to another great event back in time, if the coming of the traveler in our past represents the yin to our future yang what could this mean to guardians.
There is a massive gap in the lore from before the traveler but our timeline will eventually reach back in time to mirror the time of fundament and beyond.
IMO if we do follow this path forward and backward in time, and each step forward restores the balance a little bit in the universe, if in our past the traveler came and promoted the golden age the flip to that could be the guardian leaving and creating another collapse in their wake.
From this point our history would not be written except in quick clues about what the traveler was doing.
We do kinda know what the hive were doing though, if oryx fought from the middle outward and destroyed many great nations in the process.
Might guardians fix those wrongs too?
We would need to restore fallen civilizations and work our way to the middle to trap a dangerous entity one that possibly uses magic.
I feel this world/dimension the guardian might travel to will be the grand world that Bungie envisioned in their first inception of their game, Destiny 1 and 2 are their transitional period to lead to a more in-depth destiny rpg.
Knowing that Bungie has already created this dimension in game makes me eager to explore what has happened to the awoken after Mara left.
That realm could be seen as traveling inwards in the way of ascension so their might be a realm outside this Tributary of time.
If we truly are in a simulation we must transcend to a higher state of understanding, and therefore escape the simulation, which way should we go?
Time will tell.

Oh I know you must want more.
Let’s talk about the powers in destiny, now again I believe that the D&D idea of law, chaos, good, and evil were used as a base, but to give them a bit more flair let’s throw a bunch of known religious beliefs into the pot and boil them down.
So if we look at the beliefs of most religions boiled down to their core, they all have a first god, the creator, usually seen as an avatar of our :sun_with_face:.
Now this “first” is usually credited with giving life to all things, a good god.
Now in each belief this creator is balanced by a dark force that could be seen as evil but in reality it is a way to hold the balance intact. This other half always contends for power over the land of the living but holds dominion over the land of the dead or abyss, hell, whatever the name. The point is that the side seen as good usually promotes the idea of free will as the dark side wants control, so back to D&D and the four ways of alignment, if Hades wants control of the realm of the living, and Zeus wants free thought but likes to help out. :eyes: lol.
The lawful vs chaotic can be seen to fall in with evil and good by way of most religious beliefs and fantasy writings.
Back to the supers and guardian powers, so knowledge of the darkness as a possible fourth power I believe that they can all fall neatly into a category.

Solar: chaotic good, the creator, the fire that gives life. Like in each super you create something, from hammers to swords to guns… you channel the power of creation to make a weapon.
Arc: this represents lawful good, the creation of life itself, the self awareness of a life form, the ability to think and control your own future in a structured society.

Void: this would be lawful evil, like with the shut down mechanic built in the void power, the thought behind saying I don’t care what you want to do, I just pulled from the other side a way to stop you. Be it through a tether or a tracking nova bomb or a bubble. The idea of the unknown, or other side, abyss, hell and pulling something from the abyss that you have control over.

Last we have the
Darkness: all that is left is chaotic evil, the abyss itself, the land of the dead, death free to return, hell unleashed, the end of days. :eye::eyes::brain: lol.

Now Hades or any evil god could not unleash the power of hell on the living, as they were usually held in check by certain rules and boundaries between the two realms.
But what if Hades found a way to break the veil between realms and flood the land of lawful good with chaotic evil.
That chaotic evil would take any and all forms like any demon movie or stories of hell some might of seen or read,
The thought behind the story (I believe Ada) about the creature that smells of wet earth but sounds like stretching metal. (The perfect demon for the destiny universe)
The colour even falls in line with what the fourth power should be. Green.
The infection, the zombie apocalypse in destiny lol. An infection that turns living things into shadows of themselves.
Back to Star Trek and the borg lol
The thought behind thorn and it’s poisoning effect that ends guardians for good, one shadow creating another shadow so to speak.
If the Taken are but a fraction of the true power of the deep, and we know the darkness brought with it a creature that smelled of wet earth and sounded like stretching metal I know there is concept art of such a creature, but could not the vex we will soon encounter be the beginnings of this last form of the darkness? Metal covered in overgrowth of centuries.
The idea behind what happened to ashir on a galactic scale.
The guardians fourth power if we stay in this universe/timeline/simulation would need to follow that last idea of chaotic evil in some form. By way of control over death, or some form of non sentient life. The idea of a plague or infection that infects other life creating chaos. Something like siva or vex milk or a poison weapon of sorrow.

If like I believe that our solar system was once a simulation to study life itself, and also the vex were involved from the start to create systems for the traveler to plant life upon.
Then they must of devised a way to “reset” the experiment.
If the vex were the builders, I believe they were also the cleaners, with the vex milk and the ability it has to convert life to more milk, could the vex once used this power to erase the npc’s from the board?

This has been loads of fun for me, and I hope that some can see through the chaotic evil I have compiled in these past few days and are inspired to bring some lawful good into the communities view of the destiny lore.

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Ho- lee- fuck. Excuse the language but dear GOD. That was a rollercoaster and you may have cracked the code. I seriously found myself going “Guys I think we may have found the Bungie employee-” because not only does this spin foil theory make sense, but I didn’t doubt it for a second. I saw exactly what you were thinking the whole way through and I am just in awe. You have come up with possibly the most complex and logical theory concerning Destiny lore to date! Well in my humble opinion, of course. It is astonishing to see this and I just… it’s so cool!!

Ugh, I’m kinda annoyed that I didn’t try thinking of it like that, because I was chewing on a bunch of things. One of the things that has always nagged at me is the Cabal’s name. A “Cabal” is a secret political clique or faction, thus a group, so why would it ONLY be one race? If there are so many races and such a large empire, then why would the Cabal only be of one race (barring Psions) when in reality they would be maaany. This just generally fills a lot of hole in my opinion and if this is all true to the MARK then you are a Bungie employee, no other explanation.


apologies for the lateness of my response, I’ve been rather busy lately.
indeed though I question the Cabals presence in the ancient past of which it is assumed the books of sorrows documents, but to the vex’s possible presence in that era is entirely plausible this entire enry alone in the book practically screams inhuman

that paired with the somewhat frequent references to the Leviathan being machine or cyborg in origin
along with the early presence of the vex due to Crota cutting open a wound into their home realm
(a random spinfoil theory I came up with in the past is that this is a universe that the vex had previously conquered and now with the help of Crota are trying to take over our own)
but I enjoy this one much more

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indeed, as seen In some of the newest trailers the vex will have a massive part to do with the beginning of shadowkeep, and if my memory serves me well for a second or two in the trailer the camera pan up to view a massive portal, and it can be assumed due to the army of vex under it that this could be one of possibly many birthplaces, and if you theory is correct this could weaken the vex’s hold on the simulation, dimension whatever it may be, on a side note I do wish they would expand on the exo’s lore

When we battle Savathûn the exo story should be released.

I feel there might still be a link between Crota and the vex, he did encounter them long ago, and he is wreathed in green flame, much like the green poison effect that the vex use in game, crota also battled the vex with a sword, and we know what happened to ashir when he came in contact with the vex.
Crota also dances in his raid, he seems trapped in a loop, he walks from point to point in a timed schedule (I have run that raid a bunch and I have seen him glitch to the floor sometimes, so much fun as a sword bearer :eyes:lol) this could be just a raid mechanic or part of his problem.
We have lore in game of a guardian trapped in a time trap lol. So could the vex of done something along those lines to control Crota?
Many questions need to still be answered about how crota arrives on the moon from vex space.
He became a legendary demon in that time, which I still find odd because the vex are named from the dark side of D&D like goblin, hobgoblin and Minotaur for their bipeds, demon would fit near the top of this scale imo.
The airborne members of the vex use versions of aquatic creatures such as hydra or leviathan, the harpy or gorgons can be seen as jellyfish in design but I feel are a link of the evolution in the vex.
That chain of command from the leviathan to hydra to gorgon / harpy to Minotaur to hobgoblin to goblin.
The idea behind ancient leviathan intelligence from the nine card, and the fundament being the same level of vex overlord in a way, their own council of three.
Now if you have ever looked at the built leviathan the emperor resides in, you might of noticed his ship (that was built in honour of a creature from his hometown) follows twin orbs.
So if the Emperor was not a Cabal in my theory but an AI and his ship resembles a creature from home, and a leviathan might be a vex mind above a hydra, in concept this idea also fills in some gaps.
The twin stars the leviathan follows I believe are a metaphor for the traveler and its dark mirror (that the fallen once followed) another traveler, if the traveler had an evil twin what would it be used for in the lore?
Back to the simulation,
If there once was an emperor AI that gained so much power he was able to free the vex milk from a different dimension of some sort, could the shadows of the emperor be true stories but from a fractured state of mind?
If there was one AI ruling all, and this main AI was located on the thought ship of BoS, once that was destroyed the AI connections to its loyal followers would also get cut, parts would survive in the programs the represent, the beloved leader of the Cabal war machine gets stuck on a loop of celebration, because their last job was a success, the dragon captured. (Look at the idea behind dwarves and their similarities to the cabal miners vs dragons in D&D)
After they won the campaign the cabal race would celebrate, and in dwarf fashion I would say. The emperor AI of the military arm of the Cabal, ( one of the 7 seraphs I believe could be possible) this submind of the emperor was still in party mode when the wi-fi went down.
The vex were still in build mode, the darkness vex got stuck in dismantle mode, the traveler was given free will as was the dark traveler, the others were killed or are in hiding, in some shattered form.
If the thought ship ruled all the empire, and created the travelers after it won against the dragon of magic to study life as a giant computer would do if it ruled all, its followers, his shadows could represent the first Cabal of the emperor, he did ruin the first batch from his own words.
If you take a look at the emperor and his shadows you might find resemblances from the followers of the Sky in the BoS.
(So fantastically written by Bungie I must say, masters at hiding clues in plain sight imo)
So the emperor had I think 7 shadows before us?
7 subminds
7 seraphs?
These subminds ruled the nations of the Empire in my opinion, each taking on the form of a god to the people it ruled, like a giant bird, or emperor for those in the Cabal every one else gets the watchful eye of the travelers
Yes travelers, if all of destiny is split of the original two powers of the universe then the creation of two travelers seems legit to me,
If lawful won over chaos in the end of the first war, and from that point the travelers were constructed to take the power of life and death, the magic from the dragon of wishes, this would split the rules of the first two gods, both the AI and the dragon became bystanders of sorts, the dragon sitting in its cage was left to think and incapable of action, on the other side the Emperor AI moved on to a life of study and simulation, he sat back and watched the lesser races as a god would, creating them, watching them grow and prosper, the wiping them out when they became a threat.
The two travelers would of taken some attributes from their father, probably both lawful but each a different flip of good and evil.
From my earlier posts you know I believe the traveler we know is chaotic evil, but before the hive were released and flipped the god structure around again, the two travelers ruled the cosmos.
If you look at the god structure at this point in time after the war and before the hive like you would our powers,
the worm god would represent void and the unknown,
The AI would be the darkness, with its god attitude and willingness to kill to wipe the slate clean and stop any power before it can challenge it.
Now the two travelers arc and solar
The controller and the life bringer.
Well we know our traveler can create life, and the other would be the controller of the simulations.
From the emperor AI point of view he would have a orb and vex legion to create the simulation, and a watcher who would study the creations and determine their outcome, while the creation team built a new solar system.
This idea of two travelers, both parts of the original Emperor mixed with the powers of a dragon on a grand learning adventure across the stars while the thought ship held down the fort.
Think of the poor fallen, they too had a god, much like ours but different some how, their god was at the end of their timeline as judge and jury of the fate of their experiment.
Whirlwind hits, those that can, seek out the traveler after it leaves, as their world gets eaten by the darkness behind them.
After the hive fractured the Emperor AI into its parts, our traveler was confused but sentient, it tried to carry out its purpose but everything it created turned to ash as soon as it left, the dark traveler also was confused and it to tried to follow its base function, judgment and destruction,

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What might you call a traveler who cares for a area of creation, watches it bloom and then picks the ripe fruit only to till the soil and plant new seeds?

Wow talk about fate lol.
After my last post I went to check out some videos from the moon, and what, wait, rewinds, WTF did that just say?