The Dreams of Alpha Lupi all imply that the Traveler would have stayed regardless of the outcome. She was tired of running and being pushed around, so she made her stand. As Martin Luther once said, “I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen.”
We don’t know why she left the Fallen other than the examples we have in the Books of Sorrow, and the Dreams of Alpha Lupi. She kept moving because she didn’t want to stick around once they were set on a path to greatness, until she encountered the solar system and humanity, and made on Alpha Lupi had been going through some kind of existential crisis before resolving that, “yes, I will run no more, and I shall fight.”
I agree with you there. From the way it is worded, the Traveler has been defeated and “lives” only by memory. But even then, that doesn’t discount its validity.
I think there was just something about Earth. Ghost Fragment: Earth says,
"The blaze sits inside a nest of little worlds, still too distant to share its heat but plainly staring out at you. A face emerges, drawn from plasmas and radiation…
There must be meanings in its roar.
You listen hard and carefully, and sometimes a lucid melody seems to rise out of random noise. Joy builds, and the first hope in ages transforms you.
It seems important, even critical, to tell every star from here to the black between the galaxies that you will be strong again."
And this is before the Collapse, looking at the context.
I know this has already been resolved, but a point, the fact that Rasputin never carried out the IF commands is further evidenced in Rasputin 3: "I am declaring YUGA SUNDOWN effective on receipt (epoch reach/FORCECON variant). Cancel counterforce objectives. Cancel population protection objectives. Format moral structures for MIDNIGHT EXIGENT.
From this it is clear that his objectives shifted and that he no longer cared about what happened, initiating midnight exigent which was “an ALL ASSETS IMPERATIVE (unsecured/OUTCRY)”.
It may be true he is no longer our direct ally, but he never abandoned us, and he is still working to stop the Darkness. So friend or not, he is no enemy.That’s gotta count for something.
“The Vanguard still believe Rasputin to be simply a Warmind. He hasn’t been that for a very long time.”
This would seem to support the idea that, when Rasputin decided to go silent rather than fight, he was not only merely altering specific directives but instead was refocusing his entire purpose for existence. In other words, this is the moment he evolved from only controlling the means to a predetermined end (protecting humanity) to controlling the end itself (his own survival).
How are folks centuries in the future supposed to understand what a machine from a time they still do not fully understand what Rasputin is, what his job is and what he is doing? They can’t even build interstellar ships yet so they are not capable of understanding anything about Rasputin beyond their expectation for him to jump to their aid.
Jumpships are “near” lightspeed, not lightspeed – that’s why we have an NLS Drive. They are classified as interplanetary, not interstellar. Nowhere in Destiny have we seen a human ship leave the solar system.
@Arcmind, I’m not sure the reasoning behind that paragraph. Of course they lost much of their history and knowledge but why on earth would they not try to understand him more? All they can glean from him is how he acts, and as they lack knowledge of his inner workings, they wouldn’t know what goes on inside of him. Several of the Rasputin cards are marked in-universe for his personal reading anyway.
"A rare and precious commodity, the jumpships utilized by Guardians are cobbled together from the salvaged wreckage of interplanetary ships built long ago. Only in recent years have the Tower’s shipwrights begun working to build new hulls from the keel up. The City’s factions are also keen to develop flight capability, whether through salvage or their own shipbuilding projects.
Today, it falls upon each individual Guardian to find and maintain their own craft. Those skilled enough to acquire a ship with off-world capabilities join the front line in the long war to retake what is ours." – Obviously this is self explanatory in regards to backing my previous point: we do not build anything that travels from one planet to another. We scavenge them.
What I mean is that since no one completely understands the Golden Age, our history, technology level etc. No one in the tower is qualified to characterize Rasputin’s objectives or purpose as per this quote: “We cannot characterize Rasputin’s strategic objectives and capabilities, cannot define its physical or computational architecture, cannot ascertain its disposition with regard to the City, and cannot be sure it retains memory of events before the Collapse.” So when it comes to Lord Saladin’s claim that Rasputin has not been a Warmind for a very long time; who is he to know what a Warmind’s purpose is? And from the quote above, we cannot know what his mentality towards the city is. Just because he has not jumped to start fighting against a force he lost to once immediately upon revival does not mean he has given up completely on f, he is just going about it differently. Rasputin still remembers his losses and is not going to jump to save a city just because it is the last. He is still planning in the long run because he still is at a disadvantage.
Saladin’s words can be trusted because he is technically the first of the Guardians to encounter Rasputin, and under hostile circumstances. As the years passed, and as our Guardian reawoke Rasputin, and Raspy went and did his thing – again, people are watching him, seeing what he does but not understanding – Saladin is more fearful than his compatriots in the Tower. Observe:
SALADIN Last time, his presence was almost physical. I think he was trying to communicate, but we did not understand.
GHOST How can you be so certain Rasputin won’t get involved once we’re inside?
SALADIN The Vanguard still believe Rasputin to be simply a Warmind. He hasn’t been that for a very long time.
The Iron Lords knew what a Warmind was, or else Felwinter wouldn’t have tried to contact Raspy. The City knows what a Warmind is, or else the Vanguard wouldn’t keep trying to get him on our side. They know this partly through reclaimed history and partly through observation. They don’t know the entire story, obviously, like what the extent of Rasputin’s power was in the Golden Age or how many other Warminds were there, but what they do know they’re certain of it.
I am not saying his words can’t be trusted. I am saying they should not be taken as doctrine for what Rasputin is and is not. A Warmind is a protector, now just because this Warmind is not jumping to protect does not mean he will not. Now as for meeting him under hostile circumstances, I am going to just point to the Plaguelands, the Devil Splicers, the hole in the Cosmodrome wall, the countless strikes we did to stop some evil minions and then I am going to look at Saladin aka cause of this problem. Rasputin is still fighting the Darkness, he obliterated a Vex-Cabal army for no apparent reason than either to test his strength or to help a girl he remembered - not evil or uncaring to me. Sounds like he is getting ready for action actually. Now again, if he wins - for whatever reason he does - then we win. Simple as that. He is still a Warmind, he is just choosing to temporarily override his core programming. How do we know that; "Query: Re-engage population protection objectives. (N) Query: Reset moral structures. (N) Query: Activate defense subroutine AURORA RETROFLEX. (Y)"
Notice he can revert to his normal defense routine, but with the Darkness still looming, he chose not to and to defend the hidden stores of tech he had rather than release it. But thanks to the golden guy Rasputin failed. And if you think about it, Rasputin did not have to worry about what happened with SIVA if he was no longer a Warmind. Yet for some reason, he cared enough to destroy the Iron Lords in an attempt to warn them of the impending crisis they would unleash. What did the humans expecting protection do? Defy the protector’s warning and wreck havoc on themselves. Nice going “Iron Lord”.
I think what Saladin was saying is that Rasputin isn’t what the Vanguard’s hoping he’d be, with his past experiences liberally flavoring that statement. Even so, he knows just as much about Raspy (apart from Raspy himself) as everyone else in the setting, which is precious little compared to what we know, so I wasn’t saying that what he said is doctrine.
Oh I know what you mean. But my original statement was to make that point as someone had quoted it as proof Rasputin was on the wrong side, and I was merely pointing out how that could not be so. However I just think Saladin’s view is bordering on Bias; “The Vanguard and the Consensus hope that continued outreach towards Rasputin will develop into a strategic alliance.” And guess what? He now calls for human aid. Gives Golden Age weapons to Guardians in return for securing his safety. – On the other hand you have Saladin who is still salty that his stubborn pals got shredded before they could see their mistake realized. So I think that his OP that Rasputin is not what they hoped is not rooted in truth so much as his own opinion on the matter, because as I just pointed out - Rasputin has helped a bit (put one foot in front of the other) which is something and might continue to improve as the story goes on. After all, it is not like he will not eventually see how we are what is left of what beat the Darkness to begin with.