Primus 'Gary' Ghaul

In the video, Byf mentions that Ghaul has seen the power of the Darkness against the Cabal. However, aren’t the Cabal the Darkness? Why would the Darkness attack the Darkness?

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I think there’s a lot of confusion over the Darkness, what it is, and its relation to the different enemy races in Destiny. There’s excellent videos out there on that subject, too, like this one:

But as far as the different races go, this is a subject I’ve been sitting on for a while, so I’d like to try and explain my thoughts on it. Excuse the long post :sweat_smile:

The Darkness is most closely related to the Worm Gods and the Hive, where it is known as the Deep. The Hive are, so far, the only enemy race that we observe using the Deep’s power in a way that resembles how Guardians use Light, in the form of Hive magic; with the exception of the Vex in the Black Garden.

The Eliksni and the Cabal are both military forces that do not deal with paracausal powers or abilities comparable to the Light.

The Eliksni once had a relationship with the Traveler, but the Darkness/Deep caught up with it and caused the Whirlwind, whereupon the Traveler left them and they turned to space piracy.

We know little of the Cabal, but it’s suggested that their homeworld was destroyed, and they don’t use the Darkness’s energies in combat either.

Most of the idea of every single enemy type in Destiny being “the Darkness” comes from the Speaker saying as much about the enemies of the City. It is my opinion that he is either wrong, lying, or supposing that the Eliksni and Cabal are serving the Darkness indirectly. (From a meta perspective, this and other in-game dialogue that is questionable when considering the lore could be a result of the oversight from Activision and the replacement of Bungie’s writing team.)

The Vex have a more complicated place in the matter, but the Hive are the only race consistently and fully immersed in the Darkness or the Deep, and even they - the closest thing to the approximation of some kind of “anti-Guardians” - are not the Darkness itself. The Worm Gods, who gave the Deep’s power to Oryx, are likewise, not the Deep itself. The Deep is something else entirely, which Oryx communed with in the part of the netherworld only he could walk with the Tablets of Ruin. Id est, the Deep is its own entity.

The Cabal are, at best, indirectly advancing the Darkness’s end goal of the destruction of the Light. However, Ghaul wants to possess the Traveler, not destroy it. If he were in any kind of employment or agreement with the Darkness, his goal would likely be to completely wipe it out. There’s also the possibility that the Cabal’s homeworld was destroyed by the Darkness - which might be what Byf is referring to.

In any case, the Cabal are not allied with the Darkness…and neither are the Eliksni or those Vex that have fought with the Hive. These races each have their own stories and their own goals, not all of which are compatible with the goals of the Deep or its philosophy.


Actually, @RedRenegade, it’s more complicated than that. For more discussion on that, I refer you to my reddit post: The Darkness Grimoire card (and the Cabal). For specifics:

“If they [the Fallen] arrived shortly thereafter (as Lakshmi-2 suggests), the frightened masses still living at the time could have made the logical but erroneous conclusion that the scary aliens who were running around tearing everything apart and killing anyone they came across were part of the same force that destroyed everything in the first place.”

“In-universe, humanity has not read the Books of Sorrow […] and no few number of Guardians have any idea what the Darkness even is, those who slipped too close to the truth went mad or endangered the City’s safety (Rezyl, Toland, Osiris); so all they would know of the Darkness are these alien races fighting them on all fronts.”

So the Speaker is correct, just as Saint-14 was, because that is all they know, and those who spend time searching for answers instead of defending what’s left are doing more of a disservice than any sort of help. We know they are not, but it is because we have access to meta-knowledge, while they do not.


I’m not sure that I would say he’s correct simply because it’s assumed humanity doesn’t know any better. From an in-fiction perspective, their disillusionment is understandable. However, for the purpose of the discussion, I could not limit my above post to that perspective. And because we have knowledge of what is in fact the truth, it means that despite not knowing the whole picture, the Speaker and Saint-14 are still wrong about the Darkness.

There’s also the fact that we don’t know how much the Speaker really knows or how much of that he’s letting on, which is why I personally don’t totally trust him.

You’re right, it’s definitely a lot more complicated! Maybe we should start a brand new topic.on Darkness Theory?

Sure thing. It’d be a better area to discuss.

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Byf was referring to the Darkness destroying Ghaul’s home.

Just to deal with this one particular point on its own…

Xivu Arath, Savathûn and Oryx have all attacked and killed each other multiple times. It is the nature of the Darkness to compete for existence, even against those we might think should be allies.


“Darkness assailing/ killing Darkness” promotes the Sword Logic does it not? But to me the Cabal and Fallen aren’t really agents of Darkness in the way that we perceive the Hive. If we assume the Cabal to be an invading military force ala Roman Empire then their actions propel the Darkness if the Darkness is in of itself a sentient, aware being/ beings versus the “Darkness” being a catchall phrase the way one might use words like “the Horde” or “Chaos/ Entropy.”


I think the Cabal and Fallen are completely seperate from The Darkness.
The Hive however have a symbiotic relationship with it and would not have existed without it.
The Vex are known to have a strong relationship with The Darkness (Black Garden).
And yeah!


I do agree with them being separate from the Cabal and Fallen [Vex and Hive], but not the way you say it. They probably serve the Darkness indirectly.

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You mean that any conflicts with the Light feed the Darkness?

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I don’t know about that, but maybe, yeah.

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I actually think The Darkness is as alive and “conscious” as The Traveler.

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I don’t think so, if th Darkness is actually the Deep, I would have a hard time believing that a part of a planet could talk.

What do you mean by ‘part of a planet’?

Isn’t it the deepest part of Fundamental? Correct me if I’m wrong…:sweat_smile:

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The Deep is an entity (and philosophy) all its own. The Fundament just happened to be where the Traveler trapped the Worm Gods. The deepest part of the Fundament was where they were located but not the Deep itself. As seen in the Books of Sorrow, the Deep could only be reached or contacted by Oryx using the Tablets of Ruin.


That’s a relief!
Thanks for joining in Red, I was beginning to question myself.